HomeThis is obviously a highly sensitive subject, but a very important one. Your answer to this question will influence your view of God and your relationship with Him immensely. For some reason, many teachers of the Bible have taught that when Christians sin, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their wrongdoing, giving them the chance to repent and over time they will learn to sin less. This goes against so many scriptures it’s just not funny. There is actually not even one scripture that says the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin. One comes very close but it is often taken out of context.
John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (NKJV)
At first glance you might read this verse and come also come to think that the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin. I mean, it says it right there, “He will convict the world of sin…” The first rule of Bible interpretation is to read scripture in context. The context of this passage is Jesus talking to His disciples about what is going to happen at the cross and after the cross. The whole conversation is recorded over about 4 successive chapters from John 14 to John 17. Jesus said something just a few verses earlier that will give John 16:8 some context.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (NKJV)
Jesus just explained to His disciples that once born again, a person is no longer considered to be a part of the world. This is because we are then considered to be citizens of heaven, reborn as new creations, the sons of God. So if a Christian is not part of the world, and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, that would mean Christians are not included as the focus of John 16:8. The second support for this is found in the very next verse. At the end of verse 8 we find a colon, “:”, which means the next part is going to explain the preceding part.
John 16:8-9 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (NKJV)
The conviction of sin is because “they do not believe.” If person is a Christian, it is because they believe. If they believe, there is no need to convict them that they don’t believe. That would be both stupid and redundant. Do you see where I am going with this? Not believing is the only sin unbelievers are convicted of too, not every wrong thing they do. In John 16:8 the word sin is used as a noun and not a verb. That means the sin a person is convicted of is the state of unbelief, not the action of breaking a law. Christians who believe are called believers, meaning them people who are in a state of belief in Jesus. Since we believe in Him, we are not being convicted of not believing in Him. Fourthly, the conviction-of-Christians-teaching contradicts a few basic scriptures:
John 3:17-18 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (NKJV)
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (NKJV)
Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. There is also no condemnation in Christ. To condemn means one person judges another person guilty of wrongdoing or bad behavior. Since Jesus was clearly not sent to do this, why would His Spirit do it? Easy, He wouldn’t. For there to be no condemnation in Christ, there also needs to be no conviction of wrongdoing. If there were conviction of wrongdoing in Christ, it would mean there would also be condemnation in Christ.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. (NKJV)
2 Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them (NKJV)
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (NKJV)
These are just a few of the scriptures that tell us God is not keeping score of our sins and that He actually in His almighty power has made Himself forget our lawless transgressions. If God is not keeping score and doesn’t remember our wrong doings, the Holy Spirit would be acting in rebellion against God by convicting us of sin. Lastly, if faith is the only thing that pleases God, how does He expect us to have any morsel of faith if the guilt and condemnation from constant conviction of wrongdoing and missing the mark is robbing us of any shred of confidence we have to believe? Your capacity to believe is directly related to your ability to realize God is not judging you, but that He has judged Jesus in your place. God decided to treat Jesus the way you deserved to be treated, and to now treat you the way Jesus deserves to be treated. That is the basic definition of undeserved favour and unearned grace.
So in closing, the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict you of sin. It is the devil who is trying to get you to doubt the goodness of God. The next time you hear that conviction whispering in your ear, tell it to shut up because you are the righteousness of God in Christ and thank Him for Jesus’ sacrifice!
God is always AWESOME!
Cornel
Click here to read a preview of Cornel’s new book, “So You Think Your Mind Is Renewed?” If you’re tired of religion, legalism and the traditions of man, this book will be a great starting block for you to starting living the life you were destined to live in Christ!
November 10th, 2009 at 5:00 AM
Here is something Fabian Grech recently wrote
“Beloved, I write this with God’s love in my heart. We desperately need the conviction of sin in our personal lives, in our homes, in our witness to others, in our preaching and in our gatherings (church services). Conviction is a beautiful and powerful expression of God’s love towards us and towards sinners. The Holy Spirit convicts because He loves! ‘My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor detest His correction; for whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom He delights.’ Proverbs 3:11-12
I am blessed to see God working and moving though some of us, but we are nowhere near to where we need to be in our shining so brightly in this dark world. God is not surprised when sinners sin, but He is surprised and grieved when those who have tasted His love live in compromise, give in to sin, and let their godly convictions get lower instead of higher. Many Christians are backsliden and do not realize it, or lukewarm and do not know it. That’s why we need strong conviction of the Holy Spirit. That’s why we need Revival Fire! That’s why we need disciples who love Christ so much that are grieved by what grieves Him and are willing to speak and preach the truth! The Holy Spirit deeply longs to bring conviction, but He needs us to pray and preach the truth without holding anything back. The Holy Spirit is starving for people who preach the truth that He can use to convict of sin. I have seen preachers who try to see conviction, but they love preaching more than they love people! Our longing for the conviction of sin, must be out of love for God and love for people. Anyone of you who knows what it feels like to feel so clean and pure after you respond to the Spirit’s conviction know how important conviction is and what the difference is between conviction and condemnation. So test yourself with God’s Word to see if you have gone forward or backwards. Are you more on fire for Jesus now then you ever been? Are you witnessing to the lost because you are so full of God’s love that you have to tell others? Have your convictions gotten higher or lower? Are you watching things (on the net, t.v., other places) that Jesus would not and you know it is not increasing God’s fire in you? How are you using your time? Are you too busy to spend time alone with Jesus and witness? Are you redeeming the time and making the most of it? Is your life bringing a challenge to those around you. I encourage you to read the Word! Read scriptures that would bring conviction! (Ephesians 5:1-18; 1 Corinthians 6:9-20; Colossians 3:1-10; 1 Peter 1:15,16; 1 Peter 2;1-3; James 4:4; 1 John 3:1-9; James 1:21-25. Then tell others and preach it with compassion and conviction!”
I realize scripture refers to conviction toward the ungodly. I also realize that we as Christians need to become more aware of the grace of God, and as we become more conscious of Him, we would or should love Him even more!
John 13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (kJV)
He will guide, amen. But is there not an inward awareness of sin because of the Holiness of Him that we are convicted if you will to change. It is simply a play on words, but the idea of conviction I do not see as negative. Do you?
Ronnie
November 10th, 2009 at 12:39 PM
Hi Ronnie,
Since conviction brings condemnation and Christ did not come to condemn (John 3:17), then scripture tells me that He is not convicting us. If Jesus is not condemning but the Holy Spirit is, that means they have 2 opposing functions and that their Kingdom is divided and cannot stand (Matt 12:25). Since it is standing, we know Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not working against each other. If I was to bring conviction to a person, I would also be acting contrary to Jesus’ will and purpose, which is to not condemn.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
The one who convicts is called the accuser of the brethren, or the devil. If you want to call him the Holy Spirit doing God’s work, that is up to you. I will believe the Word of God that tells me over and over that I am holy, righteous, justified, sanctified, perfected forever by FAITH and not by my works. Here is my question to you: What makes a Christian? The acts they do or the Spirit of God in them? If you say the Spirit of God then you are right. I was made a son of God and my right standing before Him is never going to change.
Gal 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Paul asked the same questions and told the Galatians they are BEWITCHED to think they need to work for justification. They are foolish to think they are made perfect by their own actions. Since you think Paul was wrong, why don’t you tear out his 14 books?
Gal 3:11 no man is justified by the law in the sight of God
Gal 5:4 you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Your Fabian Grech said, “So test yourself with God’s Word to see if you have gone forward or backwards. Are you more on fire for Jesus now then you ever been? Are you witnessing to the lost because you are so full of God’s love that you have to tell others? Have your convictions gotten higher or lower? Are you watching things (on the net, t.v., other places) that Jesus would not and you know it is not increasing God’s fire in you? How are you using your time? Are you too busy to spend time alone with Jesus and witness? Are you redeeming the time and making the most of it? Is your life bringing a challenge to those around you?”
Witnessing to the lost is good, but does it save you? No. If you don’t do it, do you become unsaved? No. Not doing wrong things is also good, but does it save you? No. And if you do something wrong are you now unsaved again? No. If you are unsaved again, who is going to be the sacrifice for your sin now? The Bible says Jesus is only going to die once. You have a problem now (Heb 10:12-22). Verse 22 in Hebrews 10 is very interesting:
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
How can we draw near in full assurance of faith with our hearts SPRINKLED CLEAN FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE if the Holy Spirit is convicting us? If He is convicting you, your conscience will not be clean. God is not a sadistic bully. If He said faith is only thing that pleases Him, and then goes out of His way to do everything He can to keep you from having faith, then He is just barbaric. That is not my Father. That is not Jesus. That is not the Holy Spirit.
Does God want us to sin? Of course not! Do I advocate going out and just sinning? Never. But don’t tell me God is condemning people when His word is clearly saying He isn’t. How many homosexuals have been helped by the condemning judgment they get from Christians? None of them. In fact it causes them to hate God and Christians more. If convicting them and judging them is what is going to change them then we need to step it up and make sure they know how much God hates them right? And then we shouldn’t stop there, we should go out in the streets and judge the liars, those who lust who are committing adultery, those who hate who are committing murder. Judging and convicting people is the way to go! Please show me where Jesus did it even once?
There was this woman caught in adultery, and Jesus said He doesn’t accuse her or condemn her. After she realized He loved her and doesn’t condemn her, He told her to go and sin no more. Not because He is letting this one slide or giving her a freebee, because He knows He is going to be judged for her sin and to also judge her would be unnecessary. Why would Jesus not judge people before they get saved and suddenly after they get saved the judgment starts? If this was true it would be better to stay unsaved.
Does God want us to sin? No. Do I want you to sin? No. Do I approve of sin? No. Do I judge the people who sin? No. You can give me one thing after the other of what I can be doing to prove my love for God. You can list all the good works you want but I only care what the Word says about me. Take all the requirements Fabian made of witnessing, praying more, going to church, helping people etc and tell me what this verse says:
Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
To do the work of God is to believe in Jesus? Do you believe in Jesus? If you said ‘Yes’, then you are already doing the work of God. If you are not happy with His requirements, then maybe take it up with Him?
I love you brother and pray you will see the full revelation of grace.
Cornel Marais
November 10th, 2009 at 3:52 PM
What a powerful message Cornel. The truth will set you free and if people don’t WANT to be free, it is their choice. But we will never be tangled into a yoke of bondage again! [Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage].
If my Bible says that God doesn’t condemn me, I believe it!! But it is because of the traditions and religion that people hold on to, that this message just sounds too good to be true. The Bible talks about these people: [Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye].
Who are we to remember our sins if even GOD says He will remember them no more? Are we more powerful than God? I think not.
A few months ago we wrote a message similar to this one of yours, people can read it here:
http://www.newcovenantgrace.com/unforgivable-sin/
Yours in Grace
Andre van der Merwe
November 11th, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Hey Cornel, hey Andre, I think this was done masterfully by the Holy Spirit in you Cornel, just masterfully. Much of what my response was going to be is exactly as you & Andre already pointed out. Keep revealing Jesus as you are and what else can we say, “As Jesus IS, so ARE WE in THIS world!” ! john 4: 17! That alone closes the gainsaying doesn’t it? Is Jesus being convicted of sin? Neither are we because what righteous person is convicted of unrighteousness unless God is of two minds? Love you both, once again Cornel, awesome!
November 18th, 2009 at 2:35 AM
According to Encarta dictionary, ‘conviction’ can mean ‘firmly held belief’, ‘firmness of belief’ or ‘guilty verdict’. In other words, ‘conviction’ may or may not mean the same as ‘condemnation’.
I do not believe the Holy Spirit brings about a guilty verdict for the believer.
However, assuming you believe, as I do, that the Holy Spirit used Paul to write a lot of Scriptures, then Paul writes in a way which exhorts believers as to how to behave, and points out at times how not to behave, e.g. Eph 5v3,4. We could describe passages like these as messages likely to bring conviction, in the sense of bringing a new belief about right behaviour. It is not intended to condemn, i.e. produce a guilty verdict on a person’s whole personality.
Recently I handled a situation badly and ‘conviction’ came of that and the right way to handle it. I attribute that to the Holy Spirit illuminating my spirit with discernment and wisdom. I did not at any time feel an adverse overall verdict had been passed on me. In that sense of the word, I believe the Holy Spirit does bring conviction. Indeed I believe our ability to take this sort of conviction without it producing condemnation is a sign of increasing maturity.
God’s intention is to bring us to realisation of the truth (John 8v32). He does this in an ongoing way. We are being transformed. If we choose to use the term ‘conviction’ for the process by which He does this, I do not have a problem.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Hi Simon
Thanks for your comments. I just want to clear up something that a few people have brought up regarding this post. I never said conviction and condemnation is the same thing. I know they are two different things. What I meant is that conviction of fault leads to condemnation which removes your faith toward God. The article was also not about conviction in general, I do believe the Holy Spirit convicts us, but of our righteousness in Christ. Sure we can learn from making mistakes, but that doesn’t mean God wanted us to make the mistakes in the first place. I have learned very valuable lessons after making big mistakes, but not because God showed me my mistake, He showed me the right way to do it. It doesn’t take divine inspiration to know right from wrong. The laws are written on my mind and heart and I instantly know when I made a mistake. The moment I do stumble, that is when I need the Holy Spirit the most, to remind me that my sins have been forgiven, that God is not looking at my obedience but at Jesus’ obedience. That gives me the confidence to run into His throne room full of faith and joy. The Holy Spirit is my comforter, not my consciousness.
Cornel
November 25th, 2009 at 7:46 PM
Jesus said there is no condemation for those IN Christ. The little word IN is very important (please check out the Greek). Jesus also said Abide IN me and if you abide IN me you will bear fruit. Now with that in mind, read the letters Jesus wrote to his churches in Revelation. Bear in mind this was long after the cross. When Jesus said “If you do not repent I will come and remove your lampstand from it’s place”. I just have a feeling they felt convicted. Plenty more examples if you just read the letters. Moreover all the promises made are to overcomers!!!!
Bear in mind the Jesus John saw in Revelation frightened him as he fell as though dead and this was the disciple Jesus loved. I agree everything needs context. That means the bible as a whole and not just the verses you like or quote to support your view point. I’ve been very humbled many times when I’ve dared to read the whole bible and not just hold to a theory because it was taught that way.
Grace and peace to you in adbundance
November 25th, 2009 at 7:56 PM
As for your obedience comment, “God is not looking at my obedience but at Jesus’ obedience” sounds wonderful. Could you tell me where you found that in the bible? Jesus said, “19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to OBEY everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Wow! so Jesus expected that obedience could and should be taught. I think Jesus is very interested in our obedience especially seeing asthough he urgues us to overcome just as he overcame or is God not looking at our “overcomingness” but Jesus’. I think I’ll trust the word of God here.
Grace and peace to you in adundance.
God gives grace to the humble
November 25th, 2009 at 11:38 PM
MrX, do you go IN and OUT of Christ every time you sin and after you repent? Do you become unsaved then saved then unsaved again?
Rom 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nothing can separate you from the love of God in Jesus. Nothing means nothing. Not even sin. As I said before, I am not saying people should just go out and live in sin. I am saying that God doesn’t get upset when you sin because Jesus paid the price already and now God is not holding those sins against us any longer. Jesus died before you sinned once, God knew everything you were going to wrong before you even did it and made sure Jesus died for it so you could be completely forgiven.
Removing the lamp stand doesn’t mean you lose your salvation either. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians church about a certain man’s sin, he said to turn him over to satan to that his body might be destroyed and his spirit saved.
1Co 5:4-5 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
If his body is destroyed, he no longer has the ability to be the light of the world (Matt 5:14) because he would leave this world. Your body is the lamp stand, the light is Jesus. If your lamp stand gets removed, you go to heaven. That is why Paul said “so his spirit may be saved.” Having your lamp stand removed doesn’t have to mean you die either, it can also mean you are removed from the position where you shined. There are countless stories of ministers who fell into sin and they lost the positions from where they shone. Sin is never a good thing to do, I do not want people to sin.
As for my obedience comment, I found it here:
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Are you the one man who was obedient or are you part of the many who are made righteous because of His obedience?
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Were you saved by your own doing? By your own performance? The obedience Jesus spoke of was not the obedience to the law. It was the obedience to the faith.
Act 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith
Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith
We are to be obedient, but to the faith. The law is not based on faith.
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
You are right by saying God gives grace to the humble. When we humble ourselves and realize we can’t do it ourselves, we give our lives to Christ and He gives us the grace by which we get saved.
Bless you brother!
November 26th, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Hi Cornel,
Thanks so much for your rather speedy reply. It’s very rare that the writer of such articles ever replies so I must commend you for that.
Firstly, just so you don’t get me wrong I am someone who truly loves the grace of God. I owe my life to it. I’m 100% with you that we are not saved by works and we are no longer under law. I think some of your articles are fantastic and what a lot of people need to hear. Legalism is a terrible thing. Something that Paul fought very hard against (letter to the Galatians and his confrontation with Peter). He also fought equally hard against “license”. Unfortunately I believe many well meaning Christians who have realized that legalism is terrible thing have come out of it (or had it taught to them) and gone to the other extreme.
I believe that we need to have “BALANCE IN ALL THINGS” remembering that those who are legalistic seemingly serve a rather “strict”, severe, merciless, “joyless” God, while those at the “hyper-grace” end of the scale seemingly serve a God who is a kind of “good-times” merchant, freely accommodating lukewarmness and sin- one whom they need have little “fear” of at all. The truth lies in the BALANCE of both extremes.
In Revelation 1 “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits (or sevenfold spirit) before his throne” That is a reference to Isaiah 11:2 “The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD – 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
If the early church grew living in the fear of the Lord and if Jesus himself delighted in the fear of the Lord then why is it apparently absent from (or glossed over as a kind of reverence for God) from the “Grace message”? I’m just thinking aloud here.
Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. I’ll get to them soon, just got to run out and do a few things.
Grace to you!
MrX
November 27th, 2009 at 9:46 PM
Hi Cornel,
I wrote my first few comments in haste and I think we’ve misunderstood each other on a few points.
MrX, do you go IN and OUT of Christ every time you sin and after you repent? Do you become unsaved then saved then unsaved again? No, I do not believe this because this is not the teaching of God’s word. I was merely writing in response to the question you raised about sin, I never mentioned salvation, but I guess it’s importance needs some discussion.
Rom 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Aah Yes, I’ve often had this quoted as a kind of proof text for “Once saved always saved” There is one startling omission from the list – ourselves! The context is a situation in which disciples are under the pressures of “trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or sword” (Rom 8:35), but none of these will either separate them from Christ or overcome them. They will always be “more than conquerors” (Rom 8:37). That is an amazing claim – no Christian will ever go under? It is all based on the premise: “If God is for us, who can be against us?” (Rom 8:31). But what if we turn away from him and are therefore against ourselves? We must go back in the chapter to get the whole picture. “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love [are loving, go on loving](in the Greek it is in the present continuous tense) him” (Rom 8:28). So there are conditions. More of these appear earlier still. “Now if we are children, then we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory” (Rom 8:17, note Paul’s “if” and compare this verse with Philippians 3:10-11). Even before this he has warned his readers, that to live according to the “flesh” (i.e their sinful nature, as the NIV translates it) would lead to death; but if they deal ruthlessly with “the misdeeds of the body” they will enjoy the life and leading of the Spirit. That he saw a real possibility of believers letting the flesh rule their lives is confirmed by the similar passage in another letter (Gal 5). Can anyone imagine that believers living in this way would be “more than conquerors’ under pressure? The triumphant claims at the close of the chapter surely rest on the assumption that believers are controlled by the Spirit, whose mind is life and peace (Rom 8:6), led by the Spirit, enjoying the assurance of the Spirit (who “goes on testifying” that they are God’s children; Rom 8:16), praying in the Spirit (who intercedes “with groans that words cannot express’; Rom 8:26) All this is “life in the Spirit” is the background to the confident claims that reach such a climax in the final verses of the chapter. Can they be equally applied to believers living in the flesh, letting their old sinful get the upper hand of them? Can they still be confident that no-one and nothing else with get the upper hand of them? Other scriptures (notably the letters to the seven churches in Asia, Rev 2-3) suggest that if the internal battle is lost, the external conflict will also lead to defeat. The rich promises of this chapter assume that “you however, are controlled not by the sinful nature, but by Spirit if Spirit of God lives [is living, goes on living, lives continuously] in you. And if anyone does not have [is not having, has not gone on having] Spirit of Christ, he is not his’ (Rom 8:9; the definite article is missing all the way through in original Greek, emphasizing the power rather than the person of the Holy Spirit). This chapter is full of the word “if” (8 times in 9 verses). If these conditions are fulfilled, then the glorious affirmations follow. If these conditions were unconditional, it is inconceivable that they would be followed, later in the letter, by the unambiguous warning: “…provided that you continue in his [God’s] kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off” (Rom 11:22)
Removing the lamp stand doesn’t mean you lose your salvation either. I never said it did. (The Lampstand is the church made quite clear in Rev 1)
When Paul wrote to the Corinthians church about a certain man’s sin, he said to turn him over to satan to that his body might be destroyed and his spirit saved.
1Co 5:4-5 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
If his body is destroyed, he no longer has the ability to be the light of the world (Matt 5:14) because he would leave this world. Your body is the lamp stand, the light is Jesus. If your lamp stand gets removed, you go to heaven. That is why Paul said “so his spirit may be saved.” Having your lamp stand removed doesn’t have to mean you die either, it can also mean you are removed from the position where you shined. There are countless stories of ministers who fell into sin and they lost the positions from where they shone. Sin is never a good thing to do, I do not want people to sin.
Dealing with the scandal of known incest, Paul urges the church to apply the ultimate sanction to this guilty “brother” (and therefore believer) – to “hand this man over to Satan, so that his body may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord” (5:5) His open and defiant sinning must be brought to an end, however drastic the means, not just for the sake of the gospel’s reputation but for his own redemption. If he is not stopped, he will reach the point of no return and lose his salvation. However distasteful it may seem to expose a brother to Satan’s work of disease and death, that is more that outweighed by consideration of his eternal destiny. If the church does not resort to this extreme form of discipline, this “brother” will be lost for all eternity. Better sick or dead than lost in hell. Later in the letter Paul returns to the scandal of sexual immorality in the church and asks the rhetorical question: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (6:9) From his listing of their past sins (“that is what some of you were”), it might be assumed that the “wicked” are sinners, not saints. But why should he say this in a letter to saints? Precisely because they have been slipping back into their old pagan ways, including visits to prostitutes (6:15-16). That Paul believed such “wicked” behaviour could forfeit a future place in the kingdom, even for believers, is confirmed by an even clearer use of the same wording in Gal (5)
As for my obedience comment, I found it here:
I think I misunderstood you here. From your writings I thought you were not referring to justification, but rather sanctification in terms of obedience. Of course Christ’s obedience to death bought us life, but saying that to be obedient to Jesus after we have come to know him is not really important as God is looking at Jesus’ obedience is a different story. So my apologies for misunderstanding you.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Are you the one man who was obedient or are you part of the many who are made righteous because of His obedience?
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Were you saved by your own doing? By your own performance? The obedience Jesus spoke of was not the obedience to the law. It was the obedience to the faith.
Act 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith
Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith
We are to be obedient, but to the faith. The law is not based on faith.
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
If I may encourage you to take a closer look at just one of the letters Jesus wrote to his churches in Revelation 3
1″To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Bearing in mind this is long after the cross, I’d say Jesus is pretty unhappy about their state “not soiled their clothes”. Quite a different picture you paint of Jesus just continually smiling down at us whether we sin or not. If language means anything then those who had soiled their clothes could have their names removed from the book of life. Also note the call to obey it (received and heard) and REPENT! The wonderful thing about Jesus is that he gives them time to change their ways. That is his mercy and grace, but note that he never forces us.
If you look at the letters Jesus is very very concerned with a church that has lost it’s love and a lukewarm church.
You are right by saying God gives grace to the humble. When we humble ourselves and realize we can’t do it ourselves, we give our lives to Christ and He gives us the grace by which we get saved. AMEN Agreed!
Bless you brother!
Bless you too!
Please do not believe anything I write unless you can find it in your bible, but all I ask is that you search all the scripture.
Grace to you!
November 29th, 2009 at 1:41 AM
Mr X
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that modern church in many ways goes out of its way to make sin palpable. My stance is and will always be to any believer: Get clean, stay clean. If you mess up, Jesus is your advocate. Sin doesn’t stop God, it stops you.
But I personally don’t like to argue to and fro trying to draw a line to judge who is saved who is not. That is not my job. The believer’s job description has not changed in over 2000 years: Preach the kingdom, heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead. I don’t have time to worry about every little thing a person does wrong. If I just keep myself busy revealing the goodness of God to people by healing, setting free and preaching GOOD NEWS, then people will change. The goodness of God draws men unto repentance (Rom 2:4). My job is to reveal the goodness and the goodness will bring about repentance.
As for inheriting the Kingdom, you are right in saying wicked adulterous and immoral people can’t inherit it. But you stop being that person when you get saved. You are no longer the same person because you are a new creation. You might have to deal with some old habits, and thank God for the grace to change, but you inherit the kingdom based on a gift, not on your ability to get out of sin. If you could get out of sin yourself, Jesus wouldn’t have had to come down to get you out of it in the first place.
Grace & Peace to you!
Cornel
November 30th, 2009 at 7:30 PM
Hi Cornel,
Thanks again for your comments. I think we just about agree on most things, but most important of all we are brothers in Christ and it’s the same spirit that we share.
May God bless you as you preach the Goodness of the kingdom and continue to set people free!
Grace and peace to you!
MrX
September 1st, 2010 at 8:17 AM
Hi Brothers,
Dear Cornel, I heard about a man who died anc came back to life after 3 days, when the brothers in Christ were praying for him, this man was taken a visit by an angel into heaven and hell, in hell he saw a christian pastor being tormented in pain and this pastor was there because he stole money from the church and lied.
this man who came back to life after 3 days, he died because of a car accident, and he also was a pastor and a preacher of the good news, the angel told him that if this was his last day on earth then he would go to hell, because he didn’t forgive his wife, while she was asking forgivness. God intended him to be returned to earth so that he may tell about that there is really heaven and hell, and hell is not made for human beings but for satan and his followers, and no man shall go there, and Christ came to save us.
below is the link where is what I have mentioned above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuWz2KaWdyA&feature=related
you can watch the begining of the story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OahMqJ-85o&feature=related
Regards.
September 1st, 2010 at 5:17 PM
Hi Ayman,
I also know of a man who died and came back to life after three days. His Name is Jesus. I like His opinion better than man’s. He said He dealt with my sins and I believe Him. Man’s experiences is not what determines truth, God determines truth. Mohammed was also visited by an angel and look what good that did. There are angels out there trying to pervert the gospel, test every spirit to see whether it is of God.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Regards,
Cornel
September 1st, 2010 at 10:11 PM
I totally agree, that there are fallen angels who try to decieve human beings, and I do believe that we shall test them. by if you please watch the video you would know that.
My master is Jesus, who is God’s word who came to us in flesh, died for my sins and rose from death in the third daym and sent the spirit of God to dwell in us.
Dear Cornel, I don’t put man word above the word of jesus, or to be more accurate above the content jesus transmitted to us.
In the word of God, there are stories about people who made miracles in the name of Jesus and then they were rejected by God, not because he didn’t accept their repentence.
God is good all the time.
Jesus died on the cross once and will not do it again, we were saved once and no need for more, but we should be algined in harmony with that truth.
I am a student in the life. the student can teach and still can learn. I’m not well this is a bliever and he is sick therefor sickness is also for bleievers and such things.
but man died and rose from dead, and in the story I didn’t find a satanic thing, based on the word of God.
If you want to tell me a pastor can’t steal or lie, I say no , it can be and it’s by choice.
And God is good, we have the chance to regret and ask forgivness and God will respond because he is good, and supplied the sacrifice.