Please note I have changed some perpectives I had in this post. Please read Homosexuality Revisited together with this.
I have recently been asked by a number of people what my thoughts are regarding Christians who are homosexual. This is definitely a hot topic, and I am sure some will take exception to what my personal views are. Also check out the bottom of the article for a video and another article I have linked to. As I am sure there will quite some debating in the comment section, please be friendly, and keep it short if you can.
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The direct blunt question is really ‘Can a person be saved and a homosexual at the same time?’ My answer is yes and no, depending on how you define a few concepts. This is because I believe it comes down to a question of identity as well as your value system.
Firstly as a Christian, you are to find your identity in Christ. Jesus is the cornerstone of your true identity. 1 John 4:17 says that we are as Jesus is in this world. Now I don’t believe Jesus is a homosexual (since He is waiting for a bride, not a groom) therefore to claim or express a Christian homosexual identity is not a true expression of your real identity, which is Christ. In the same way that murder, living in adultery, stealing or lying is not an expression of one’s true Christ-like identity, or the expression of Christ in me.
Secondly, where do get your value system from? If you get it from your feelings, then your values will change with your feelings. Saying homosexuality is right because you were born that way and can’t help your feelings, passions and desires leads down a slippery slope. What if another person claims that they were born to rape children? They also say they can’t help their feelings, passions and desires, so therefore raping children is right in their opinion. Who are you to judge them? Feelings and passions towards certain actions don’t make the actions right.
One’s value system cannot be based on one’s feelings; otherwise your values will change with your mood swings. It needs to come from an unchangeable source. As a Christian, we find our value system in Christ, and as such homosexuality is once again ousted. Now to make this claim I have to take the stance that homosexuality is a sin, because sin is not an expression of Christ’s identity nor His value system.
Now many of the people who will disagree with me when I say it is a sin will now tell me that if I believe this to be a sin and voice my opinion of it, that I will have to equally oppose things like shaving my beard, eating pork and wearing clothes weaved of different materials, things I willingly do all the time.
This is actually a very typical argument that assumes I define sin by the law. I don’t. The law was never applicable to me thus the prohibitions made in it are not for me either. I define homosexuality as a sin based on the definition of sin: To miss the mark. Let me explain:
Human beings were created by God way before the law. And even before the fall of man, they had a purpose to fulfill: Bear His image, subdue the earth, be fruitful and multiply. As I have already said, Jesus is not a homosexual, so already here homosexuality misses the marked purpose of bearing His image.
Since it is also impossible for two men or two woman to procreate, they also miss the mark on the be fruitful and multiply front. Since they can’t multiply, they will only be able to subdue and tend the earth for one generation before going extinct. Based on those three missed marks, I hold that homosexuality is a sin.
Now before someone set the hounds on me, I differentiate between only 2 kinds of sin. Forgiven and unforgiven. Homosexuality falls into the forgiven kind since the only unforgiven sin that remains is unbelief in Christ. So when I teach, as I have done since learning about grace, that our sins are forgiven past, present and future, then I include homosexuality in that.
Yes, homosexuality is forgiven just like any other sin, past present and future. So no matter what expression of sin you still have in your life after salvation, be it porn, drugs, adultery, stealing, homosexuality or whatever, Christ has provided forgiveness for that. So based on that principle, I believe a person can be truly saved and yet still live their life contrary to their reborn nature, which includes amongst others, homosexuality.
That being said, I believe Jesus is fully capable of having a relationship with people no matter their sexual preferences. I don’t know about you but sex is not all life is about and my identity is certainly not defined by my sex-life. It is merely one part, it is not the only part. I can at times fail to express Christ in me in one area, but excel at expressing Him in many other areas.
Despite the fact that I personally have many faults in my life, from character flaws to the occasional behavioural missteps, I am still able to reveal and express Christ. He is expressed despite my shortcomings, my mistakes, my faults and my weaknesses, but that does not excuse them for He has supplied me with the power to live free of them. There are things I am working on and renewing my mind to by His grace daily. I have not arrived, but I have left.
Whilst thinking on all these things I kept being drawn to the story of Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery. When I asked Jesus why, He told me to substitute any other sin in the place of adultery. (See John 8:4)
And they said to Him, “Teacher, this person was caught in homosexuality, in the very act.”
And they said to Him, “Teacher, this person was caught watching porn, in the very act.”
And they said to Him, “Teacher, this person was caught stealing, in the very act.”
And they said to Him, “Teacher, this person was caught lying, in the very act.”
Jesus response was that he who has not sinned could throw the first stone. Since all have sinned, nobody can throw any stones except Jesus. After all the condemning hypocrites have left, Jesus turns to whomever is caught in whichever act and tells them He does not condemn them. Then He adds, go and sin no more.
When I hear those words, ‘Go and sin no more’ I am not hearing a conditional release or a law to obey. I am hearing an encouragement from Jesus. I hear Him empowering me to live free from sin by saying, ‘When you live this way, you are choosing to live below the best I have for you. Go and live in the abundance I have provided and forget about these things that merely rob you of precious elements of life. Look, the doors of the prison are open, leave and be free.’
After this Jesus asked me how I think He would react if this same woman were again caught in the act of adultery a few days later? I said, ‘The same way?’ and He said, ‘Exactly. Where sin abounds grace abounds much more. I can see the true woman, and I love her. These affairs are not who she really is.”
God has made us kings, and when we choose to live as paupers, it does not take away from the fact that we are kings. But once we see and come to experience life as kings, living like paupers will not be appealing to us at all. If you had $10 million dollars in the bank, would you choose to live on the streets?
Having said all that let me readdress the question from the start of this article. Can a person be saved and a homosexual at the same time? No. One is either a Christian or a homosexual. You can’t express two contrasting identities at the same time. 1 Cor 6:9-11 makes this clear. Verse 11 says ‘and such were some of you.’ That means that there was a change in identity. You are no longer a homosexual, an adulterer, a drunk, a thief or any of the other sin identities listed.
Can a person be saved and ACT in homosexual ways? Yes. Just like a person can be saved, go through a divorce, gossip, commit adultery, get drunk and do many of the other things listed in the same verses. Yet we don’t call their salvation into question as readily.
Salvation is a change in identity, and subsequently a change in the expression of identity. So when a saved person with a new nature chooses to engage in homosexuality, they are merely acting in a particular manner, they are not expressing their true selves in one particular area. Even the word act is a word that means to pretend. You are merely pretending, you are not being your real self.
Robin Williams played the role of a gay man, Armand Goldman, in the 1996 movie, ‘The Birdcage’. Williams is heterosexual in real life, Armand was only an act, a role he portrayed. To say you are a Christian and a homosexual is like saying Armand Goldman is the true identity while Robin Williams is an act. If Williams were to dress as Armand and go about his everyday life acting like Armand, people who know him will soon ask, ‘What are you doing? You are Robin Williams, not Armand Goldman.’ Your real identity is not homosexual, but you can choose to act homosexually.
Further to this there is the question about expressing sexuality in eternity. Scripture is not very clear on that so we can only speculate. Yet Matt 22:30 says that in heaven we will not marry nor be given in marriage. Sex outside of marriage is called a sin by various Old and New Testament writers, which can lead one to conclude that if we aren’t to marry nor are given in marriage, perhaps sexual intercourse is no longer a driving passion in heaven.
Perhaps the joys and pleasure experienced in our glorified bodies in heaven will make sex pale in comparison. With our glorified bodies we will be holy and complete on all levels, just like Jesus. Completeness means there is no longer any need. That would logically include sexual needs. If heaven is a divine place without need and want, then sexual intercourse might not be high priority there since it is almost entirely a need and want based passion.
And keeping with the Christ-like identity, if you are a Christian who engages in homosexuality, I believe that once you get to heaven you will no longer express that identity because you will be completely expressed in your true form, Christ-like, and that does not include homosexuality for Christ is not a homosexual.
Now I know this article is not all encompassing, but at this point in time this is my current conclusion.
You might believe you were born a certain way, but as a Christian, you are reborn in a different way.
Grace and peace
Cornel
Here is a video by Kris Vallotton that looks deeper into the issue of value systems derived from feelings.
54 Responses to Homosexuality and Christianity
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"Your life is transformed to the degree that your mind is renewed. Cornel's book goes a long way to removing the hindrances to that renewal."
-Curry R. Blake, John G. Lake Ministries
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- A New Journey April 27, 2013
- Military Industrial Church – By Clint Byars March 25, 2013
- Rediscovering “The Way” of Jesus – Steve Hackman March 22, 2013
- The Simplicity of Christ & The Serpent of Hyperspiritualism Part 2 – Joel Marius March 20, 2013
- God is Not Your Employer May 20, 2013
- Endure to the End and be Saved May 13, 2013
- Jesus Preached the Kingdom and the Law (Pt2) March 26, 2013
- Jesus Preached the Kingdom and the Law (Pt1) March 18, 2013
“if you are a Christian who engages in homosexuality, I believe that once you get to heaven. . .” Really???
What part of this don’t you understand? ‘And a man who lies with a male as he lies with a woman: both of them have done an abomination, they shall certainly be put to death, their blood is upon them. ‘
Perhaps you missed Malachi 3:6.
Yes really. If you are a Christian with a porn addiction, will you have that addiction in heaven? I think not. I prefer spending my time discovering the forgiveness provided in the New Covenant through the once for all sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. He died for the homosexuals just as much as He did for any other person.
I’m sorry but where in the bible does it say that God is okay with the practices of homosexuality? Anyone? That’s right it doesn’t say anywhere that He’s okay with it because He’s not. Romans 1 vs 27 says that a man and a man having sex together is shameful. I don’t know about you but I don’t think I’d be too proud about flaunting my blatant sins in public in the face of my creator under the guise of “greasy grace” and “love and tolerate”. You guys better give your bible’s another read if you can’t get the picture. I’m not hating on homosexuals but I’m getting tired of hearing about Christians faulting their sins online and demanding that they’re right and doing it God’s way. This is very basic people God hate’s sin homosexuality is SHAMEFULL! There’s no pride in shame. Seriously you guys need to give your head a shake and wake up. There’s no grey areas here understand? God lives for you so that you can turn from your sin and live rightly. Not like a dog who returns to his vomit. Doesn’t sound too appetizing does it… Just because God died for you, doesn’t mean that you get to go to heaven. You have to make that choice and put those things that God despises in you to death before to can ever have a hope of eternity with HIM. Again, I’m sorry guys, but the scriptures are very clear on this matter.
You are crazy as hell, and in a bad way. Just because the bible does’nt say that God is okay with homosexuality that doesn’t means is not okay. Jesus never talked about homosexuality and when Romans 1:27 is saying it is shamefull to hear what they do in secret, it is comparing as to hear that your brother in love is comitting adultery with your female neighbor, it means about something sinful that you hear somebody to gossip about, it is paul saying that to other men, that is his point of View to men, not God’s point of view, when he has a reveletaion from God to say, He strictly says that before he launches a topic. you have a so lw based mentality when you say that men “has to” firstly to put thing that God despises away, jaja, you need to read you bible, God is not hating sin, He is so busy loving His children.
Alaina, here’s my take on Romans 1:27. That particular area is talking about the unrighteous not the Righteous or Believers if you will. Once you become a Believer you are Righteous in His eyes. If Christ died for your sins then your sins are forgiven, past, present and future. As was mentioned about the women who was caught in the act of adultery is a great example of Christs love. Jesus never condemned her. He only said go and sin no more. And again the women at the well. We do not live under the Law as Believers. We are under Grace.
I admit I still struggle with some of these ideas. But the more you understand His Love for us under His Grace the easier it becomes to accept.
I will say the Christian church has not done a very good job of things. The Bible has to be read as Law vs Grace. The Old Covenant is Christ concealed. The New Covenant is Christ revealed.
that is old testament, that does not apply. Christ ‘s covenant applies now.
No, it says it in the New Testament too. Romans 1:26-27 says, “Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex and started having sex with other women. In the same way, men stopped having natural sex and began wanting each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.” Everything in the Bible is from God. you either believe the whole Bible or none of it. Don’t just pick apart the scriptures you like.
Wow that was an amazing read about the guy whos married who is homosexual. What an amazing guy! Certainly gave me something to think about, thats for sure. Thank you for yr post and for sharing the link to that article.
BTW, if you had a half way decent study bible you would know that the fictional story of the woman supposedly caught in adultery is nothing more than fiction. . . An addition to scripture that makes no scriptural sense at all.
The account is recorded in over 900 ancient manuscripts uncovered to date. If you are going to argue textual problems you are not going to have much of a bible left…
Homosexuality may be okay in post Messianic Secular Christianity but it is not okay in the Kingdom of the Most High.
No sin is ok in the Kingdom of the Most High. That is why Christ became sin for us and gave us His righteousness. He removed our sin, including homosexuality.
I thought that we understand the definition of sin in relation to Romans 13:8-10 :
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Moreover our identity being in Christ, Paul says in Christ there is no “male and female” (if it’s translated properly). I found a very good source of information that presents both sides of the debate. They also produced some videos, this one is very helpful regarding: are we designed for heterosexuality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpzqNbcN10&list=PLDA1EBE6901CF9CE4&index=4&feature=plpp_video
I agree. I love my neighbour regardless of their sexual orientation. As for no male and no female, that was in regards to gender bais, not genitals.
Cornel,
This is a very interesting post. I like what you have said in part and disagree with what you have said in part. However, I’m not sure why exactly I disagree with your particular arguments.
I am a Christian who has a homosexual orientation. I once, on a day of great confusion and despair asked God, “am I gay?” and felt him respond “No”.
I found this to be distressing, as I was coming to a place of accepting that part of me. I asked Him, “So, am I straight?” again I heard him reply, “No.”
Obviously, this was quite confusing! “Well, God, what am I?”
“You are my son, whom I love. That is your identity, and nothing else!” was Father’s reply. I am more than one part of me, and I am certainly not defined by my sexuality.
I agree with you, one is to not find their indentity in anything other than Christ.
However, I think I take issue with some of the arguments you use.
“Now I don’t believe Jesus is a homosexual (since He is waiting for a bride, not a groom) therefore to claim or express a Christian homosexual identity is not a true expression of your real identity, which is Christ.”
I think this is a bit of a stretch of an argument. Yes, Jesus is coming back for a “bride”; but that bride consists of male and females (and those who would be considered asexual). He is not marrying “one” person, but (billions? trillions?) of people. So, by the logic that (I might be reading into) from your post (I admit I may misunderstand you), Jesus is actually bi-sexual and into polygamy.
Secondly, Jesus never married nor appeared to show any romantic or sexual interest in anyone whilst on earth. If one wants to use the life of Jesus’ as an example on married relationships, they should conclude that we are to remain celibate.
“In the same way that murder, living in adultery, stealing or lying is not an expression of one’s true Christ-like identity, or the expression of Christ in me… What if another person claims that they were born to rape children? They also say they can’t help their feelings, passions and desires, so therefore raping children is right in their opinion. Who are you to judge them? Feelings and passions towards certain actions don’t make the actions right.”
This one kind of hurt, to be honest. Murder, commiting adultery, stealing, lying or raping children are all things that people *do*. Generally, they are also not something that people become aware of in themselves from a young age that they have inclinations to *do* those things, or that they are somehow different to those around them for having inclinations to do those things. Now, I am not naive, I work with youth at risk and in welfare, I am aware of the lows of human nature. But, most people growing up don’t wrestle with “I am liar, an adulter, a child rapist”. They may struggle with the desire to lie (pretty much every kid), but they still see it as something they *do* rather than something that they are. Talk to pretty much any person with a homosexual orientation, and they will tell you that they were aware that THEY were different, that there was something about THEM, that was *wrong* in comparison to everyone else. Mostly, this was before they had even hit puberty and the sexual urge kicked in. They were aware that they were “gay” maybe even before they had a framework to describe it.
I admit that I am not explaining myself very well.
Secondly, lying, adultery, raping children are all things which destroy relationships. They hurt people. Having a homosexual orientation does not hurt anyone in and of itself. Nor do I see how a consenting sexual act within the confines of a loving relationship is hurtful. Yes, you can use the whole marriage argument. But, IF two people of the same sex were allowed to marry and they were committed to loving one another, serving one another till death do they part etc, I fail to see how whatever sexual acts they commit to out of love for one another (that goes beyond mere lust) can be likened to the raping of a child. Yes, I’m coming for the place where I’m considering the possibility that homosexual sex might not be wrong, but, please, at least admit there might be some logic in my argument here?
“Jesus is not a homosexual, so already here homosexuality misses the marked purpose of bearing His image.”
Jesus is also not married, nor a woman. Are they missing the mark?
Jesus never had sex. Are all those engaging in sexual intercourse missing the mark?
“Since it is also impossible for two men or two woman to procreate, they also miss the mark on the be fruitful and multiply front. Since they can’t multiply, they will only be able to subdue and tend the earth for one generation before going extinct. Based on those three missed marks, I hold that homosexuality is a sin.”
Nor can celibate people, people who are incapable of having children, nor married couples who chose not to have children. Whilst they can all still subdue and tend the earth but don’t have babies, are they all in sin? From studies that I have read, there is only a consistant 3-10% of the world population who have a homosexual orientation. Not nearly enough to halt population growth.
Also, would it not be fair to say that we have kind of fulfilled that? Surely it’s safe to say that the world if pret-ty full? Is there much of a need to fill the earth? Surely with anywhere from 90-97% of the population having a hetrosexual orientation (or normal orientation, depending on how you view it), we’re pretty safe with the continuing of the human race.
“I believe Jesus is fully capable of having a relationship with people no matter their sexual preferences. I don’t know about you but sex is not all life is about and my identity is certainly not defined by my sex-life. It is merely one part, it is not the only part.”
Amen, He is. I agree, my identity is not defined by my sex life. If that were the case, I would be “nothing”, as I have never had sex nor plan to anytime in the near future. However, whilst you seem to admit that the act of sex is not the whole of your being, you seem to equate having homosexual sex with being the “whole” of being “a” homosexual. As I said, I have never had sex. I also don’t view myself as “a” homosexual; I am more than my sexual orientation. However, I still admit that PART of my identity, part of me that makes me ME, is that I have a homosexual orientation. Just as there is PART of you, that has a heterosexual orientation. You are not “a” heterosexual, but you are hetrosexual. Even if I never express my sexuality in a sexual act, I will (unless God ‘fixes’ me) remain having a homosexual orientation. It doesn’t just affect whom I want to have sex with, but also the way I relate to the world, to people, in relationships. It is NOT me, but it is a big contributing factor to who I am. I don’t meant this as a cop out, but unless you have had to painstakingly assess and question your sexual orientation and how you relate to the world, to discover the mannerisms, the words, your likes, your dislikes that “give you away” as being, you will not understand how much it affects you. Am I making sense?
I don’t mean to be rude, I am honestly just trying to understand and also to give a different view. I have fought my whole life against being gay, I have tried programs and inner healing and mind renewal…I came closer to God, but I kept “being gay”. I am at peace with myself and God, but still trying to figure it all out and still open to being celibate or “becoming straight”, if God were to show me that’s what he wanted.
I look forward to your replies
Thanks for your comment, really appreciate it. I hope I will be able to reply to all your points properly. And I will be the first to admit that yes, there are certainly a view holes and loose ends in how I described things. The issue of sexual orientation is not an easy one, and this is the first time I have attempted to write about it.
The relationship Jesus has with us is difficult to describe. Yes, He calls us His bride, but we are also His brothers and sisters as well His sons and daughters. I don’t think we are able to fully understand the dynamic going on. And yes, Jesus didn’t have a physical love relationship or married anybody, but he also never drove a car. Should we stop doing that? He never wore jeans either?
Maybe people aren’t aware from childhood that they want to rape children or lie or commit adultery no. That doesn’t work that way with all sin. But what about certain serial killers? Many of them knew from a young age there was something different in them and the drive to kill and brutalize people for them is more than just something they do.
You say homosexuality doesn’t hurt any person in and of itself. Actually, it can tear families apart, it can destroy marriages, it can do loads of damage to other people. But then again so does gambling and addiction. People hurt people, regardless of sexual orientation.
The part of my article I myself have the most issues with is how I wrote about bearing His image, procreating and subduing the earth. I am already working on a re-working of that. But my conclusions regarding was not aimed at the 3-10%. It was in absolute terms, meaning if all people were gay, every single man and woman, then that people group as a whole won’t live up the original purpose. Obviously all aren’t and therefore that purpose is being lived out by people all over the earth.
No, I don’t equate having homosexual sex as being the whole of a homosexual. That is how people view the term, but it is just an expression of sexuality. Like I said, it is one aspect of a person’s life, not their entire life.
If I missed anything, please let me know. I would love to gain more perspective on the topic because my ultimate aim is not to ostracize but to find a way to help those who seek it.
Great comment. I would have said pretty much the same thing but I’m a bit over commented on things lately
It made me laugh… “I think this is a bit of a stretch of an argument. Yes, Jesus is coming
back for a “bride”; but that bride consists of male and females (and
those who would be considered asexual). He is not marrying “one” person,
but (billions? trillions?) of people. So, by the logic that (I might be
reading into) from your post (I admit I may misunderstand you), Jesus
is actually bi-sexual and into polygamy.”" good point, that’s why I say that example of Jesus and His bride is irrelevant to sex issues of this life.
WOW! i just read Josh Weed’s blog entry (the link you gave). It’s a powerful testimony !
Best explanation of the topic I have ever read. I have been hearing a lot more about our “Identity” lately. Identity seems to be a big topic right now.
You’re a gutsy guy to post such a thing. I shared your article ” When not looking at porn is a sin”. It cost me several friends. I’m confident this article won’t win them back, and it would probably alienate a few more.
Understanding grace, which in some camps, is a crime. I see the gospel of grace in this article. Looking at ‘sin’ the way you have explained it here makes the rest of the New Testament easier to understand.
The hard part is learning to walk out our new identity with less interference from the old one.
Question: what does Paul mean then when he says, “homosexuals…. and the like, will not inherit the kingdom of God” ?
I realize an inheritance is not earned. It is bequeathed. Yet somehow, some people because of sin are disqualified.
Thanks for the article. Well done.
I wouldn’t call it the best explanation, it is merely my first attempt at a topic I am not very familiar with personally. I never said what I wrote is scripture or completely right, it is just how I am currently debating the topic in my head…
I’ve been through and worked with an ex gay ministry for nearly 20 years. I have my own testimony and countless others. I have seen the successes and failures.
I agree with you on many points, and you may well be right in saying homosexuality is not God’s perfect plan. Our true identity is in union with God. And of course we are the bride of Christ, which is feminine anyway, a little something which men tend to quickly pass over
Our new bodies will be “sexless” apparently, but that argument really implies we should ALL just deny our sexuality to get ready for the next age. You seem to have have made quite a few assumptions that show you have a very shallow understanding of the issue. I could argue scriptures, doctrines etc, as we all do, on so many subjects, but we know that never really works.
I seriously suggest, that before you make ANY comment on the matter, that you get to know some gay people. Talk to them and try to understand their hearts.
The only thing I will say is this: If I told you being straight is a sin and that to be truly whole you must deny your natural attraction to women and change that attraction to men, how would you feel? Could you do it? Seriously think about that one for a while. That’s how most gay people are.
It’s a huge subject and I would really be happy to have some extended (and graceful) dialog about this. Mostly because I have a lot of respect for your messages and heart for truth and don’t want you to look like an idiot to others who actually have quite a grasp on the subject.
Sorry if that sounds patronizing, I don’t mean it to be, but I am very concerned about the amount of ignorance and assumptions being made about this subject by well meaning christians.
Thanks Cornel
Jim
Thanks Jim,
I realize my first attempt did not cover all the basis and I am sure I have heaps to still learn on the topic. I didn’t say we will be sexless. There is a difference between sex, sexuality and sexual intercourse. Sex actually just refers to male of female. It is only in the last few decades that is has become synonymous with intercourse. I also did say I don’t know what will happen in heaven and that I am only speculating.
I do know some gay people, and have a met few more recently and I am slowly learning more about what they are going through. That being said, I am not trying to force my own value system onto anybody. In fact neither the ‘God hates gays’ nor the ‘Homosexuality is ok’ group will essentially like what I wrote here.
I am very open to discuss things further and gain better insight into this topic. As for looking like an idiot, I am sure there are many people out there to whom I have appeared idiotic, especially to my atheist friends… hehe.
I don’t know why people in this post and answers keep saying that Christ and his bride and not Christ and His groom, that is absolutely irrelevant to sex, because every believer in Christ, man or woman are His bride. Sex is absolutely irrelevant to this topc when you are trying to say Christ and His bride as an example, We are one with Him in Spirit.
Excellent article Cornel. Unusually for me I cannot think of anything to add or change!
That is unusual indeed. I have already thought of things to both add and change…
Great article Cornel! Anyone reading this article with an open mind should pick up on your heart of humility that you are not saying you have all the answers, but also on your bodlness in sharing the truth that sets men and women free. As a Pastor, who has ministered to “homosexuals” ,and I personally even have family members struggling with this behavior, it was refreshing to read an article full of grace and truth. Jesus offers the gift of no condemnation to all who are struggling with sin, but the power of His grace also causes us to rule and reign in this live over sin, totally free!In my opinion, you are not saying anything that the Apostle Paul didnt say himself This will set people free!
Thanks Brett, appreciate it. This is no easy topic for sure!
Thanks so much for your posts Cornel. They bless me tremendously as well as encourage me to continue to think outside the box of religion/old covenant that I grew up in. This indeed is a hot button topic around the world & as with any other “issue” that a person faces. As believers, i believe the appropriate way to approach it is the same way we should approach others…..with the love of Christ. I think a lot of people get so caught up in the “problem” and diagnosing the “problem” or trying to come up with a cure for the “problem” that we miss the opportunities that are in front of us every day to show someone the love of God (a non-judgemental, non-condeming love). Thank God for his free gift of Grace!!! By the way, any plans to come back to the states??
I agree Eric, and if we gain a better insight to all facets of this issue we will be better able to understand and listen and relate to the people facing the issue. And yes, we are planning a trip to the US in 2013.
During your 2013 trip will you be near the southeastern united states? Either way, let me know what is the best way to arrange for you to come & minister to our people if that is something that could possibly be worked out. Thanks so much.
Thanks Eric, will email you and keep you up to date. Well work on an itinerary later in the year.
Wow. Wonderful article Cornel. Really made me think.
I find it scary how all the old testament legalism presenting itself in hate and dogma comes out of the woodwork the moment you mention this subject – sad. Anyway…
Probably the main point of contention is whether we are regarding homosexuality as sin. If it is sin then its covered by Jesus anyway as all sin is. But like you say, we then assume that as we allow Jesus love to consume us all these things will fall away. I have found this to be true in every area of my life.
I was never interested in women at all at any stage and the thought of sex with a woman was quite disturbing. Jesus swamped me with His love when I was 15 and the battle with this “orientation” intensified as a wrestled with knowing I was loved but the church saying it was an abomination. I got deliverance, counselling, did the ministries and got married to a wonderful woman “in faith” that God was changing me. I learned how to be straight, how to have sex with a woman, do all the right things, but it never changed the most basic hormonal drive. The best way of describing it to a straight person is telling they they have to live as a gay.
To cut a very long story short, these days I am at peace with the whole issue. I am physically (hormonally?) attracted to men just as a straight person is attracted to women. After 40 years of wrestling with this, that core factor has not changed one iota. I also have ADD which affects the way my brain processes and reacts to things – often producing “sinful” action. I can take drugs for it, I can believe that God will heal it, or I can accept its part of who I am (which I do now) and get on with life knowing its God’s problem if He wants to change me. Same with homosexuality. I can’t do a thing about it. Now I am at peace with it, if God wants to change me, it’s His problem. I have never been closer to him, felt more joy and peace and “fruit” in my life. I’m not looking for a relationship, but if one comes along I certainly won’t be worried about enjoying intimately sharing my life with someone I love. It’s not about the physical act, its about the part of us that “falls in love”, is intimately attracted to someone, to share emotionally, spiritually and physically.
As a comment on scripture. It’s actually not as clear cut as it seems. There is a lot of stuff around the net that goes into detail about this. The OT only mentions it in Leviticus right there with eating shellfish and getting tattoos (that can be a whole study in itself). Sodom and Gomorrah isn’t about sex (read it again carefully if you think it is!). The NT references need some careful study of the original language. Briefly, the Romans one clearly talks about those who TURN from their NATURAL desires. Its talking about sex addiction, perversion and all that goes with it, not what I have described above. The word translated as homosexual, is actually a bit unclear in the greek but the closest we know for sure is “young male temple prostitute”. There are some other variations on that, but again, none of them are what I have described.
The whole subject is completely steeped in cultural and religious opinion, paradigms built on deep prejudice and ignorance, and made worse by ignorance of the depth of the new covenant.
Thanks for your time and openness with this issue Cornel – much needed!
I agree Jim, and that is why I said it is completely covered and removed. For that reason I believe a that a gay person who truly gets saved has their inner man renewed completely. The experience of that change works out differently for different people just like healing often works out differently for different people. Why that is we don’t yet know. After posting this I have received emails from people who have testified to me that they got saved out of their homosexual lifestyle and are freed from it, and that they now do understand their new identity. This confirms to me much of what I have said regarding my understanding of the issue currently, yet I know I am nowhere near having a complete grasp on it.
I think we are lying to ourselves and selling God short if we accept that God made people to be gay. If Satan could convince Eve, that God was lying, could he not also convince some to be gay, a pedophile or an atheist?
God made us in His image. He made them male and female. He didn’t goof.
Since people are sharing links. Here is one.
Dan Mohler – How to Resist the Devil
Dan talks about how so many are easily shaken when the devil throws accusations, temptations, past desires, and memories in the minds of believers. He shares…
http://youtu.be/V1SGGTWiIcM
I agree that God does not make people gay. Thanks for the link.
Hi Cornel,
I appreciate your reply
Yes Jesus never drove a car or wore jeans, mainly because they weren’t around in his day. Also, those things don’t strike at the core of who we are. I think you would be able to admit that who we love (whether or not you can agree that it is ‘true’ love) is very much removed from what we wear or what we drive. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not think it actually answers the question.
Yes homosexuality can be destructive, just as much as heterosexuality can. Both destroy families, tear marriages apart and destroy others if not expressed in healthy and loving ways. The only way that I can see homosexuality as being destructive to families or marriages is that either the families do not accept their child who is homosexually orientated, thus causing division and rejection. Or that a married person has a homosexual affair or decides to “come out” and thus end their marriage. So, I would actually argue that it is the misuse or unhealthy expression of ANY sexuality that is what is destructive. A dude called Anthony Venn-Brown uses the phrase, “My sexuality might not be a choice, but my morality is”.
Again, I object to consential sexual acts between two people of legal age who genuinely “love” one another (again whether or not you think that two men or women can have agape and phileo love that expresses itself eros or erotically just as in a heterosexual relation) being equated to mass murder or raping. But, I guess if you believe any same sex acts are sinful, or fleshy, than they are easily equatable (is that a word?). However, I still object haha.
I know you are not trying to ostracise and I am very thankful that you are wrestling with this issue and still calling for love.
The quote ‘My sexuality may not be a choice, but my morality is’ would not work for people who regard homosexuality as immoral. Morality differs from culture to culture and nation to nation and from person to person, especially when feelings are used to decide morality.
Regarding your objection, you are still missing what I was saying. I was not equating the act of homosexual sex with the act of rape and murder parse, I was talking about the justifications people give. They say homosexuality is an inward feeling they canot help and as such is should be accepted because they ‘were born this way’. If you use that argument, then what do you do with people who say they have this inward feeling they cannot help to rape or murder, that they also were born this way? Why can homosexuals argue born this way but pedophiles cant? The feelings and motivation does not justify the act.
Now I know you are thinking homosexuality and pedophilia differ because one is intentional infliction of harm, but the other is an expression of love. Many pedophiles actually believe that they are expressing love to those children, that they aren’t harming them. Both groups use the same arguments to justify their acts.
But like I said, morality is different for different people. What I regard as immoral somebody else will see as perfectly ok. Debating opinion is not going to resolve the issue.
I would still say we are missing the point on a deeper level. For starters there is actually a lot of contention over what the scriptures actually say – not what we think they say.
Here’s an interesting view that may or may not be correct. But the point is, we simply can’t assume we’ve got it sussed – history has shown that we consistently assume we have the correct interpretation of scripture, only to have that interpretation completely turned upside down! There are many other sites that discuss scriptural interpretation of the subject in great detail.
http://www.well.com/~aquarius/
Jim, we are not likely to agree on this subject. I personally believe it is wrong and will always be wrong no matter the cultural or historical acceptance of it. But my personal convictions should not become a law unto others. I do not hate homosexuals nor do I judge their relationship with Christ. In fact I fully believe a person who considers themselves a homosexual can still have a relationship with Christ although I also believe their willing homosexual behaviour is not an expression of Christ in them.
From my own personal experience (and many others I have spoken to) My relationship with God has never been deeper, happier and more peaceful, since ending the lifelong battle. When I stopped and finally said “too hard” God rushed in, took away the battle with suicide, and the doors to intimacy with Him swung wide open.
My sexual orientation has not changed in the slightest. I am not in a relationship but I know I’m free to be if the opportunity comes along. I am not called to be celibate and it would be cruel indeed to put that demand on anyone unless God specifically gave them that “gift”.
The fruit in my life has surprised me as well. So all up, I can only see good from finally embracing the way I was made.
So for the question of willing homosexual behavior, where do we go with that? Basically you are saying we have to be celibate or pretend to be straight. I’ve tried both – I married a wonderful woman and after 22 years it was still a battle, I guess it would be like asking you to live in a gay relationship with your best friend
We worked together in an ex-gay ministry as well for most of that time. We saw wonderful victories for those who had suffered abuse, sexual addiction, and other serious issues, but never anyone change their actual orientation.
So yeah, its a big issue that just isn’t black and white, and we need discussions like this to help break down biases and dogma so we can get a real handle on it and bring life to millions of gay people who are suffering some of the worst internal torment you could imagine!
Yes Jim, it is not an easy issue to discuss. Thanks for your gracious responses and for having patience with me on this subject. I dont think we are going to see eye to eye on every aspect, as I cannot begin to imagine the feelings and struggles people who are homosexual face daily.
I understand your argument. However, I would still argue that pedophilia is not between two consenting, mature, mentally capable adults. Pedophilia causes harm to children, regardless of how the perpetrator feels.
If you believe that is the same as two people of the same sex having sex, then we are not going to see eye to eye, which is okay.
Could you explain what you believe the harm is that is caused between two same sex people in a relationship causes? Genuine interest.
Thanks for taking them time and being graceful and kind, Cornel. It is appreciated.
I understand what you mean too. Let’s then change from pedophilia to incest. What if a brother and sister, both mature consenting adults decide they want to be in a relationship that includes physical intimacy? Would that be right? What about a father and daughter? A mother and son? Consent between two parties still doesn’t justify the act.
Asking what harm homosexuality causes is like asking what harm heterosexuality causes. You need to define harm. Are you talking harm to those in the relationship? Harm to 3rd parties? Harm to extended family? Harm to society? A subjective question would result in subjective answers.
A valiant but ultimately futile effort. To nicely compare homosexuality to child rape is the same as maliciously comparing it. It’s not the tone but the idea that they are comparable that makes it deplorable.
Also, holding to the idea that it is not a choice (believe me, I know quite a few homosexuals and it is not a choice) within the lines of “be fruitful and multiply” (which on a strictly anthropologically cultural/tribal level makes sense) would hold the same weight against those who cannot breed due to a medical condition (everything from genetic disorders to cancer). Should one ask forgiveness for not being able to reproduce period, then? If a couple that can’t breed has sex, is that sinful? If we are going to use this stark contrast, then where lies adoption?
I understand his ideals are based in the context of scripture… but your identity is not based upon Christ. If it is I think that acceptance (not tolerance), love, compassion, and understanding should be one’s forte. Ultimately, in the end, the ability to love is what I would consider to be the closest thing divinity one can reach. Homosexuals are just as loving and caring as heterosexuals… so where in that lies the sin? If the only argument is the way someone has sex then I would adhere to the simple laws of the human heart: sex is an expression of love on an intimate level between two consenting adults. This leaves children and rape and animals out of the equation (which so many Christians like to interject).
I’m pretty sure there is a valid ideology or logical theology that may overshadows mine but I have yet to hear it.
I have revisited many of the points you raised, stating that I have changed my view on procreation. Please read Homosexuality Revisited. I would also like to add that nowhere did I say homosexuals are incapable of love. I believe that they can have a true relationship with Jesus, that they can express His love, compassion, acceptance and kindness and all the other too. But since you don’t agree that your identity is based on Christ, we won’t see eye to eye on this issue.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
Christ is my life. He is my identity. We are one.
Cornel! Good job! Well written and thought out in light of the finished work of Christ! You get it! Keep up the good work Cornel! You are being true to the scripture and the Spirit of grace! Love you brother!
Very well done, Cornel. Thanks for this post. Your take on grace is right on and refreshing.
Few things I’ve noticed.(I live in a high gay area and my daughter is gay so I get this close up) The Homosexual always seem to paint this picture of a “loving couple in a life long relationship” It is my observance that 99% of gay relationships are basic sex fests, very short term and have one relationship after another. The driving factor seems to be sexual which is a selfish desire/gratification so not Christ life. (the same for heteros in multiple relationships) The other the NT mentions homosexual as sin along with a list of other sins (not greater or lesser) but sin nontheless, yet heterosexual is not in the list. The NT also talks about one man/women in marrage etc.
@David
Your statistics are rather exaggerated but I take your point. In my lifetime of experience in this area I would say most of the gays you “see” are sex addicts, just as most hetero sex addicts are high profile in terms of flaunted sexuality. Most gays I have met are not sex addicts, and want nothing more than a lifelong loving relationship – and I have worked in this area for a long time. As with most things, its the vocal minority that paint the rest with the same brush!
As for scripture, that is a very contentious area. I have spent years researching this from every angle imaginable and am convinced a combination of bad interpretation, poor exegesis and incorrect translation have created a very inaccurate picture. Its way to complex to go into on this thread but I would suggest doing a really comprehensive and unbiased study.
Heterosexuals are in the lists when it says “fornicators”.
When the bible says that man was created in the image and likeness of God, that means exactly that, they were created like that rightly so! without any doing based performance of man. when God said to man “be frutful and multiply, the identity of man was already established, not in the purpose of it but in man himself because God created man with his image and likeness included!. to say that homosexuality is a sin because they do not procreated is wrong, many people in the world do not procreate so that desetimate that perpective. talking about homosexuality coming from people that never were homosexuals is wrong becaused mostly they don’t know what they’re talking about. homosexuality is not a choice, and is not genetic, and God did not make men this way! homosexuals, bisexuals and other sexual orientations lifestyles are people that have been stolen their identity when they were children, by demonic intervention, sexual abuse, parenting abandonment and so more (there is also another kind of homosexuals that the bible talks about when it says the they were men that fornicate with many women that in their search for pleasure they turned to fornication with another men). I hate to talk about homosexuality and I didn’t start this topic and I don’t know why people think they have a “saying” about it. I’m only posting this as an answer to the topic above. when you guys are trying to define if homosexuality is a sin or is not a sin, you are eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. PLEASE STOP this “I HAVE TO POST OR TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT MY VIEW OR PERSPECTIVE ON HOMOSEXUALITY” fever, unbelievers condition is irrelevant to the good news and power of the gospel, and absolutely irrelevant to the new born spirit filled christian, STOP feeding people’s head with this hungry intention to define what is sin and and what is not. the purpose of God is that the human race be established to the state of pure innocence. Homosexuality cannot be cure and cannot be prevent because is not a disease. and on the contrary people can be set free and get well emotionally conected. I advise you to connect emotionally with your sons and daughters and brothers and sister and not be self center all the time, becaused when you try to define things about homosexuality, the real thing going on is that you are disconeccting yourself from the people around you. homosexuals do not produce homosexuals, heterosexuals do.
I hope my written english can be undertand, I am a mexican.
God has blessed you already!
Thanks for the tree of life, friend!