Comments on: Removing Paul’s Thorn In The Flesh: Part 1 http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/ LEARNING TO LIVE BY HIS DIVINE LIFE! Wed, 01 Feb 2012 23:47:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Paul’s Thorn Was Not Sickness | Revival or Riots Ministries http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1484 Paul’s Thorn Was Not Sickness | Revival or Riots Ministries Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:33:45 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1484 [...] Part 1 [...] [...] Part 1 [...]

]]> By: Cornel http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1331 Cornel Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:00:30 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1331 Bryan, honestly. God having authority over the devil and Jesus commanding demons to leave people is in no way the same things as this situation. Your idea of God is the same as a ying-yang god who possesses both good and evil. Look at Jesus' words: Mat 12:25-28 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. If what you are saying is true, then Jesus didn't know what He was talking about because He clearly states His kingdom is NOT divided and that He is not in league with the devil. 1 John 3:8 also tells us Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. If the works of the devil is commissioned by God, as you propose, then Jesus came to destroy the works of God. Your reasoning makes no sense and is not supported by scripture either, which you never seem to reference anyway. Bryan, honestly. God having authority over the devil and Jesus commanding demons to leave people is in no way the same things as this situation. Your idea of God is the same as a ying-yang god who possesses both good and evil. Look at Jesus’ words:

Mat 12:25-28 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 “And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

If what you are saying is true, then Jesus didn’t know what He was talking about because He clearly states His kingdom is NOT divided and that He is not in league with the devil. 1 John 3:8 also tells us Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. If the works of the devil is commissioned by God, as you propose, then Jesus came to destroy the works of God. Your reasoning makes no sense and is not supported by scripture either, which you never seem to reference anyway.

]]> By: Cornel http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1330 Cornel Fri, 24 Jun 2011 10:49:12 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1330 I am not spitting hairs, I was presenting scripture in context. You are splitting hairs to try and justify suffering, which is very suspect. There is a clear difference between sickness and persecution. Paul was talking about persecution in reference to his thorn therefor you cannot use it argue in favour of sickness. 'A thorn in the flesh', to a Hebrew always meant somebody causing trouble for them or afflicting them. It was never used in reference to sickness ever. So your argument here does not hold water. Since Hebrews 1 tells us that Jesus is the exact representation of God's character and nature, why don't we ever see Jesus making people sick, or telling them God has a purpose in this sickness to teach them, to draw others, to whatever other nonsense you want to reason. My example is Jesus. He never made anybody sick. Quote me one scripture describing the New Covenant we have God where the better blessings and better promises refer to God willing us to be sick. You wont find any. As for God 'leaving her crippled', as I explained before, if He does will for her to be cripple, she is going to be wheelchair-bound for a very long time, even after she dies. Can she bring glory to God and reach people despite her condition? Of course. Every person can bring God glory if they choose to. She could have reached thousands whether or not she was in a wheelchair. I have been writing for just under 2 years and have reached almost 100,000 people in 164 countries. I didn't need a wheelchair for that. God lives outside time and as 1 Peter 2:24 shows, by His stripes we WERE (past tense) healed. In truth, she is healed. God did it already, at the cross. The manifestation of that truth might not yet been seen, but that doesn't void the truth of what God has done. Truth is truth whether you believe it or not. Whether you see it or not. I am not spitting hairs, I was presenting scripture in context. You are splitting hairs to try and justify suffering, which is very suspect. There is a clear difference between sickness and persecution. Paul was talking about persecution in reference to his thorn therefor you cannot use it argue in favour of sickness. ‘A thorn in the flesh’, to a Hebrew always meant somebody causing trouble for them or afflicting them. It was never used in reference to sickness ever. So your argument here does not hold water. Since Hebrews 1 tells us that Jesus is the exact representation of God’s character and nature, why don’t we ever see Jesus making people sick, or telling them God has a purpose in this sickness to teach them, to draw others, to whatever other nonsense you want to reason. My example is Jesus. He never made anybody sick. Quote me one scripture describing the New Covenant we have God where the better blessings and better promises refer to God willing us to be sick. You wont find any.

As for God ‘leaving her crippled’, as I explained before, if He does will for her to be cripple, she is going to be wheelchair-bound for a very long time, even after she dies. Can she bring glory to God and reach people despite her condition? Of course. Every person can bring God glory if they choose to. She could have reached thousands whether or not she was in a wheelchair. I have been writing for just under 2 years and have reached almost 100,000 people in 164 countries. I didn’t need a wheelchair for that. God lives outside time and as 1 Peter 2:24 shows, by His stripes we WERE (past tense) healed. In truth, she is healed. God did it already, at the cross. The manifestation of that truth might not yet been seen, but that doesn’t void the truth of what God has done. Truth is truth whether you believe it or not. Whether you see it or not.

]]> By: Bryan Melugin http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1326 Bryan Melugin Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:59:17 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1326 You say above, “Verse 7 clearly states the thorn was a messenger of Satan. If you say the thorn was from God, you are calling God the devil.” You've made two mistakes: 1. "A messenger of Satan" was the thorn sent- it does not necessarily follow that Satan did the sending. Scripture clearly shows God has command over Satan and his minions, and could send them if it suites His good purposes, without himself BEING Satan. Jesus didn't become Satan when he sent demons into pigs, but he commanded them and they obeyed. 2. Verse 7 says "in order to keep me from becoming conceited..."By saying the thorn was sent by Satan, and rejecting the idea that this could be the will of God, you are saying Satan intended to teach Paul to be humble. Not even Screwtape could find a diabolical cause vile enough to make him help humans avoid becoming conceited. If you can think of one I would be most interested to hear it. Thanks! Your Rent-A-Friend You say above, “Verse 7 clearly states the thorn was a messenger of Satan. If you say the thorn was from God, you are calling God the devil.”
You’ve made two mistakes: 1. “A messenger of Satan” was the thorn sent- it does not necessarily follow that Satan did the sending. Scripture clearly shows God has command over Satan and his minions, and could send them if it suites His good purposes, without himself BEING Satan. Jesus didn’t become Satan when he sent demons into pigs, but he commanded them and they obeyed.
2. Verse 7 says “in order to keep me from becoming conceited…”By saying the thorn was sent by Satan, and rejecting the idea that this could be the will of God, you are saying Satan intended to teach Paul to be humble. Not even Screwtape could find a diabolical cause vile enough to make him help humans avoid becoming conceited. If you can think of one I would be most interested to hear it.
Thanks!
Your Rent-A-Friend

]]> By: Bryan Melugin http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1325 Bryan Melugin Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:51:00 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1325 Josh H. in the comments above stated, correctly so, that Paul asked his infirmity (However you wish to define that) to be removed and God said NO. You change the subject to split hairs between persecution and other causes for suffering. Josh’s point is not that Joni Tada is in a wheel chair because she was persecuted, but that she remains in one despite asking God for healing. WHY is she still wheel chair bound? Is it because God has a purpose higher than her healing would bring- such as using her condition to reach the lost with the gospel? This is Josh’s point, and I think he makes sense, but you seem to disagree. It is not because she has not prayed and been prayed for. What does that leave you? If it is not because God has a good reason for allowing her condition to continue, then either he leaves her crippled without a good reason, or he cannot heal her. I do not see any other alternative. Your previous replies have amounted to “We don’t know, but it’s not God’s fault!” but I think you can see how insufficient that reply is. Please reply to Josh’s comments and questions. I would like to hear the answers if any exist. Thanks! Your Rent-A-Friend Josh H. in the comments above stated, correctly so, that Paul asked his infirmity (However you wish to define that) to be removed and God said NO. You change the subject to split hairs between persecution and other causes for suffering. Josh’s point is not that Joni Tada is in a wheel chair because she was persecuted, but that she remains in one despite asking God for healing.
WHY is she still wheel chair bound? Is it because God has a purpose higher than her healing would bring- such as using her condition to reach the lost with the gospel? This is Josh’s point, and I think he makes sense, but you seem to disagree. It is not because she has not prayed and been prayed for. What does that leave you? If it is not because God has a good reason for allowing her condition to continue, then either he leaves her crippled without a good reason, or he cannot heal her. I do not see any other alternative.
Your previous replies have amounted to “We don’t know, but it’s not God’s fault!” but I think you can see how insufficient that reply is. Please reply to Josh’s comments and questions. I would like to hear the answers if any exist.
Thanks!
Your Rent-A-Friend

]]> By: Cornel http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1040 Cornel Wed, 06 Oct 2010 01:10:12 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1040 Again, Paul's thorn was not sickness. His thorn was persecution. Jesus said if we follow Him we will be persecuted. Is there suffering involved in persecution? Sure. But sickness and persecution for the gospel's sake is not the same thing. Joni Tada dove into shallow water and broke her neck. She was not persecuted so her suffering can not be classified as a thorn in her flesh. If she was out in the streets preaching the gospel and somebody attacked her for it and broke her neck, then I would call it persecution. Again, Paul’s thorn was not sickness. His thorn was persecution. Jesus said if we follow Him we will be persecuted. Is there suffering involved in persecution? Sure. But sickness and persecution for the gospel’s sake is not the same thing. Joni Tada dove into shallow water and broke her neck. She was not persecuted so her suffering can not be classified as a thorn in her flesh. If she was out in the streets preaching the gospel and somebody attacked her for it and broke her neck, then I would call it persecution.

]]> By: Josh H. http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1035 Josh H. Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:11:26 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-1035 ha! Man, I know I'm probably running you ragged with all my comments all over the place. It's just you're discussing things that have really been on my mind lately and I've just discovered your blog this week so I'm talking it all in. As I said in my comment on your other post, in the case of the thorn in Paul's flesh, regardless of where it came from or what it's purpose was, God allowed it to continue stating only that "My grace is sufficient for you." Paul asked that whatever it was be removed and the Father's answer was No. And don't get me wrong, God is just in all He does. His answer of "no" was a just answer and Paul rightly submitted to the Lord. But the Lord allowed it to continue. ha! Man, I know I’m probably running you ragged with all my comments all over the place. It’s just you’re discussing things that have really been on my mind lately and I’ve just discovered your blog this week so I’m talking it all in.

As I said in my comment on your other post, in the case of the thorn in Paul’s flesh, regardless of where it came from or what it’s purpose was, God allowed it to continue stating only that “My grace is sufficient for you.” Paul asked that whatever it was be removed and the Father’s answer was No. And don’t get me wrong, God is just in all He does. His answer of “no” was a just answer and Paul rightly submitted to the Lord. But the Lord allowed it to continue.

]]> By: Cornel http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-930 Cornel Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:28:15 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-930 You are right Steve, here are those scripture references: Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. In Grace, Cornel You are right Steve, here are those scripture references:

Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

In Grace,

Cornel

]]> By: Steve Goodall http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-926 Steve Goodall Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:19:56 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-926 Bro. Cornel, I believe that I am preaching to the choir when I say this...Scripture is often the best interpreter of Scripture. I believe it is important to add to your piece on "thorn in the flesh" that Paul did not make this term up...he usurped it from the Old Testament. I am sooooo tired of the term being used to claim that it is not always God's will to heal sickness. On his missionary journies the Jews were Paul's worst enemies, often trying to kill him. You are spot on with your interpretation that Paul's reference to this term "thorn in the flesh" was a reference to persecution, not illness. I believe Paul is referring to these menacing Jews. Paul was an expert on Scripture. "Thorn in the side/flesh" is a phrase used in Numbers and Judges (I'm going from memory here) to refer to the people who persecuted the people of the ancient nation of Israel. This is where Paul got the term and he is using it in the exact same context. Paul would never have used this term in any context other than that in which God had already inspired. Your brother in Christ, steve Bro. Cornel,

I believe that I am preaching to the choir when I say this…Scripture is often the best interpreter of Scripture. I believe it is important to add to your piece on “thorn in the flesh” that Paul did not make this term up…he usurped it from the Old Testament.

I am sooooo tired of the term being used to claim that it is not always God’s will to heal sickness. On his missionary journies the Jews were Paul’s worst enemies, often trying to kill him. You are spot on with your interpretation that Paul’s reference to this term “thorn in the flesh” was a reference to persecution, not illness. I believe Paul is referring to these menacing Jews.

Paul was an expert on Scripture. “Thorn in the side/flesh” is a phrase used in Numbers and Judges (I’m going from memory here) to refer to the people who persecuted the people of the ancient nation of Israel. This is where Paul got the term and he is using it in the exact same context. Paul would never have used this term in any context other than that in which God had already inspired.

Your brother in Christ,

steve

]]> By: Cornel http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%e2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-329 Cornel Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:31:16 +0000 http://www.charismaministries.org/?p=579#comment-329 I am more interested in the message then the messenger. What is said and why it is said is much more valuable in this case then who said it. Hope you enjoy it. Cornel I am more interested in the message then the messenger. What is said and why it is said is much more valuable in this case then who said it.

Hope you enjoy it.

Cornel

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