HomePlease be warned that the following message is going to be very straight forward. (You’ve been warned…)
There are a few beliefs some Christians hold to and even profess that ruffle my feathers the wrong way. The one I am going to cut to pieces now is one that was brought to my attention again this week and it’s the one about sickness being a trial we go through that God uses to test our faith and make us better people, to teach us to trust Him more. AAARGH!! Let’s start at the beginning. One of the first names God reveals Himself as is Jehovah Rapha which means I AM THAT I AM HEALING. How can God send sickness if He is healing? You can only give what you have. Logic.
1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed. (NKJV)
By the stripes of Jesus we WERE healed. Past tense. God provided for healing 2000 years before you even got sick once. If God makes you sick, He is actively in rebellion against the finished works of the cross. He would be undoing what Jesus died to do. If God makes you carry something Jesus died carrying on your behalf, then Jesus did it for nothing. If God placed ALL sickness on Jesus it means there is NONE left to place on you!
Matt 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. (NKJV)
If God is healing and making sick then His Kingdom is divided against itself and cannot stand. That should shut down the whole stupid theology right there. But some people think sickness is as a result of sin and sickness is one way God uses to teach us not to sin. Really? Look at the following 3 verses:
2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NKJV)
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (NKJV)
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things (NKJV)
God has three ways of teaching us: His Word (which is Jesus), the anointing (which is His power), and the Holy Spirit. If you say sickness is God’s way of teaching, then you are calling the Word, Jesus, the anointing and the Holy Spirit a sickness. Think long and hard about that one… Next, if God made you sick to teach you something, and again I say IF, then why do you go to the doctor? Wouldn’t that be rebellion against God’s will? God wanted you sick, but you are running to the doctor to make you well, so you are in rebellion. You should be praying to let the sickness run its full course so you can really learn what God wants to show you. And if making us sick is a valid and divine way of teaching, and we are told to imitate Christ, then why don’t we inject our kids with cancer or HIV? We want them to be good people with nice character right? If sickness if God’s way of building character, then give your kids cancer and help them be better people. Can you see why I call this stupid?
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. (NKJV)
2 Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, (NKJV)
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (NKJV)
If God is making you sick because of sin, then God is lying in all three these verses. If He makes you sick because of sin it would mean He is keeping score of your sin, He hasn’t blotted them out of His memory and Jesus didn’t carry all sin. Again, think about that of while, or should I say, SELA! Ok, last verse:
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (NKJV)
Jesus went around doing GOOD by healing people who were OPPRESSED BY THE DEVIL. Jesus was healing people who the devil was making sick. So if you are sick, it is not God, it is the devil. He is trying to make you carry something Jesus died to free you of in order to get you to doubt the goodness of God. Rom 16:20 says the God of peace will crush satan under YOUR feet. When you start stepping God can do some crushing! So go get that size 13 sandal of the GOSPEL and put it where it belongs, on the devil’s head!
Be HEALED NOW!!! Shaba!
Cornel
Click here to read a preview of Cornel’s new book, “So You Think Your Mind Is Renewed?” If you’re tired of religion, legalism and the traditions of man, this book will be a great starting block for you to starting living the life you were destined to live in Christ!
November 13th, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Awesome stuff!
Just one query, struggling a little with the part where God placed ALL sickness on Jesus. Just before that you say you can’t give what you don’t have. So I’m assuming you mean God didn’t give sickness to Jesus rather all our sins were counted on him and with this naturally came the sickness as well. Am I getting it? Or do you mean something else?
Thanks for all the articles dude, really help me take in the Grace message!
Mike
November 14th, 2009 at 1:24 AM
Hi Mike,
In Isaiah 53 we read the following:
Isa 53:4-5 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
The Hebrew words for griefs and sorrows are the words khol-ee’ and mak-obe’ which both directly mean sickness, pain, disease, anxiety, afflictions, grief and sorrow. They are words that are used to describe physical sickness. The ‘He’ is obviously Jesus who bore our sicknesses and diseases in His body through the stripes on His back. This prophesy was also mentioned again by Matthew:
Mat 8:16-17 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”
This time the Greek words astheneia (illness, disease, infimity, weakness) & nosos (disease, infirmity, sickness) were more properly translated to illnesses and diseases. Jesus healed people to fulfill the prophesy spoken by Isaiah that He carried our sicknesses for us. Now I know my words could have been chosen better as you pointed out, that God didn’t give Jesus sicknesses. Jesus took it upon Himself free willingly. In a divine exchange he became sin, curse and sickness for us and we became the righteousness of God in Him. Your healing was provided for in the atonement and therefore it is always God’s will for a person to be healed just as much as it is His will for a person to be saved.
I hope that clears it up for you!
Cornel
November 14th, 2009 at 3:44 AM
Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
AWESOME!!!!!
November 14th, 2009 at 12:42 PM
Woooah what a powerful message, right in the devil’s face!! Take that you filthy lying spirits, you have held the church captive and at ransom for far too long now, we are taking back this ground in the name of Jesus!!!!
Shaba!
January 1st, 2010 at 6:02 AM
what about Paul’s sickness ‘thorn in the flesh’ ? why he carried it with him. Do blessings come through afflictions?
January 1st, 2010 at 11:06 AM
Hi Mat,
I will write an article on Paul’s thorn this week and explain it all in detail. Many people have asked this question before. In short, his ‘thorn in the flesh’ was not a sickness he couldn’t get healed from, it was persecution and afflictions for the gospel’s sake. Read the 2 Cor 11 in context with 2 Cor 12. I will try to post it soon. The term ‘a thorn in the flesh’ is an idiom that means a persistent difficulty or something/body very annoying that will not go away.” Thanks for the question, more detailed answer coming soon
Also, blessings do not come from afflictions. Blessings come from God.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
We face afflictions because of the gospel, because of what we preach and believe. The person who gets afflicted or persecuted more does not receive more blessings then the one who doesn’t. We are blessed because we are in Christ. He HAS blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing already (Eph 1:3). To think a blessing comes from an affliction is to basically call God an affliction. When we go through afflictions and persecutions (brought on by the devil, not God) it serves to solidify our faith and make us steadfast (James 1:2-4).
I hope this helped, please ask if something was unclear.
Glory to God, Freedom to Man!
Cornel
January 6th, 2010 at 11:04 AM
The term ‘a thorn in the flesh’ is an idiom that means a persistent difficulty or something/body very annoying that will not go away.”
Your explanation doesn’t rule out the possibility of persistent sickness in his body
(we can’t conclusively say “it was persecution and afflictions for the gospel’s sake”
The biblical interpreter, therefore, is left with several decisions to make. Is the phrase literal or figurative? If it is the latter, what type of affliction (physical, mental, spiritual) is suggested by the “thorn” in the “flesh” of Paul?
Mat
January 10th, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Hi Mat,
I have posted an article that explains in more detail how the thorn does not refer to sickness, you can read it here:
http://www.charismaministries.org/removing-paul%E2%80%99s-thorn-in-the-flesh-part-1/
God bless,
Cornel
June 13th, 2010 at 3:25 PM
You’re taking verses severely out of context. Look at the context of the Isaiah verse, and the 1st Peter verse, and then tell me how you could apply those verses to physical healing.
June 14th, 2010 at 1:16 PM
Hi John,
How am I taking them out of context? In Matt 8:16-17 Jesus was healing physical people of physical sickness to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy. If I am taking his words out of context, then Jesus was too.
Cornel
June 14th, 2010 at 2:21 PM
Sorry, my comment was unclear. I meant, “tell me how you could apply those verses to physical healing TODAY.” As you pointed out yourself, Jesus FULFILLED that prophecy. The verse can’t be applied to modern times.
June 14th, 2010 at 2:27 PM
Here’s further clarification for what I meant:
http://www.letusreason.org/wf10.htm
June 21st, 2010 at 12:59 PM
Hi John, sorry for the delay in my reply. I was offline for a while. Here is quote from the article you referred me to:
“Our physical healing is included in the cross but is not guaranteed at this time.” If you take that statement, which is the general summary of the whole article, and you compare it to 2 Corinthians 1:19-20, you will find it to be unscriptural.
2Co 1:19-20 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. 20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
If it is included, it is a promise. If its a promise, it is yes and amen. If you want to believe otherwise I can’t help that. As for me, I will believe God, Jehovah Rapha, the God who Heals me. I have ministered healing to hundreds of people. Tell them that God doesn’t heal. And yes sometimes I have not seen everyone healed, but I don’t judge God by my circumstance, I judge my circumstance by the Word of God.
Secondly, if that verse can’t be applied to modern times, why did Jesus command us to go into the nations and heal the sick? If healing can’t be applied to modern times and healing was included in the atonement, then salvation can’t be applied to modern times either.
My God is a good God, who wills all to be saved and healed.
Cornel
July 4th, 2010 at 8:39 PM
Thanks for your reply, Cornel. Believe it or not, you are actually the first person with this “healing theology” I have managed to have a rational conversation with. The rest have immediately cast me off as a “son of the devil.”
Just to clarify, I do not believe that God never heals today. Far from it. I am not a cessationist whatsoever. I have no doubt that God heals today. None.
The issue, however, is this: does God ALWAYS heal? I’m a committed Scripture hound, and in all my searching of scripture, I have not found any evidence that God always heals, or that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross provided physical healing. If you read the Isaiah verse, or the 1st Peter verse you quoted in your article within its honest context, the healing it refers to is a purely spiritual healing. This is the interpretation without any presuppositions. It’s an honest reading of the Bible.
Moreover, multiple members of the early church (ones that saw miracles far more spectacular than what we see today) were mentioned to be sick. Timothy (1 Tim 5:23), Epaphroditus (Phil 2) and Trophimus (2 Tim 4:20). This presents a paradox. If these guys were true believers, living in the power of Jesus’ sacrifice, why were they not healed? Surely, they had much more of an understanding of Jesus’ work on the cross than we do today, as they were learning from the Apostles themselves. Yet, Paul even tells Timothy to drink a little wine to help improve his sick stomach. He doesn’t tell him to get to the nearest Christians and have them lay hands on him to heal him.
We are never promised a life free from suffering or disease. One of the big themes of the New Testament is to persevere through trial, which God uses to refine our character. I too believe that God is good. But I also know that His definition of “good” is not always my definition of “good.” He does not operate under the logic of this world. Disease in His eyes can be “good” if it builds us up and strengthens our character to become more holy and righteous in His sight.
As for Jesus’ command for us to go into the world to cast out demons, heal the sick, etc., I believe you are misinterpreting that. When Jesus ordered His followers to do so, it was a very specific command with a very specific purpose at a very specific time: to ready the hearts of the people for Jesus at that time. In Matthew 10, right after Jesus gives the heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. command, He tells His followers:
“Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11″Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.”
If we are to follow the Matthew 10:8 command, then we are also to follow what comes after it: all this technical stuff about not taking gold or silver and whatnot. But we all know that that would be silly to adhere to that command today.
I don’t believe Jesus commanded us to heal the sick. I believe Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel, as outlined in the Great Commission. What is the Gospel? That Jesus Christ has come to earth and died to save man’s soul. THAT is the true power of the Gospel – not healing, not miracles, not signs and wonders, not any of that. The true power of the Gospel is Jesus’ message of the redemption of the soul. And guess what – in Luke’s version of the Great Commission, it mentions that signs and wonders will FOLLOW those who preach the Gospel. It’s the Gospel first, and signs and wonders, when necessary, will follow.
I do admire your passion in running this site. I believe that this generation needs to be awakened, that we are a spiritually dead generation, that we need to commit to our Apostlic duties. But I would caution you in how you interpret the Bible, because it never tells us Jesus’ work on the cross healed us physically once and for all. And if we’re preaching a misinterpretation of the Bible, and seeing “results” regardless, we’re risking falling into the Matthew 24:24 trap.
I would love to discuss any disagreements you may have.
Love in Christ.
July 13th, 2010 at 11:59 PM
John,
You said, “If you read the Isaiah verse, or the 1st Peter verse you quoted in your article within its honest context, the healing it refers to is a purely spiritual healing. This is the interpretation without any presuppositions. It’s an honest reading of the Bible.”
How do you read spiritual healing as a honest interpretation? Have your read Matt 8:16-17? Please explain to me how Jesus healed physical sickness by Isaiah’s prophecy. Secondly, have you even done a word study on the words heal, healing, healed etc? Apparently not because if you did you would have seen that the word for healed used in Isaiah 53 occurs numerous times in the Bible. Here are ALL the occurrences: (Go read them and see how many times this word referred to spiritual healing. I’ll give you a hint: not once.)
râphâ’ / râphâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 68
healed, 32 occurences
Gen_20:17, Exo_21:19, Lev_13:18, Lev_13:37, Lev_14:3, Lev_14:48, Deu_28:27, Deu_28:35, 1Sa_6:3, 2Ki_2:21-22 (2), 2Ki_8:29, 2Ki_9:15, 2Ch_22:6, 2Ch_30:20, Psa_30:2, Psa_107:20, Isa_6:10, Isa_53:5, Jer_6:14, Jer_8:11, Jer_15:18, Jer_17:14, Jer_51:8-9 (3), Eze_34:4, Eze_47:8-9 (2), Eze_47:11, Hos_7:1, Hos_11:3
heal, 21
Num_12:13, Deu_32:39, 2Ki_20:5, 2Ki_20:8, 2Ch_7:14, Psa_6:2, Psa_41:4, Ecc_3:2-3 (2), Isa_19:22 (2), Isa_57:18-19 (2), Jer_3:22, Jer_17:14, Jer_30:17, Hos_5:13 (2), Hos_6:1, Hos_14:4, Zec_11:16
healeth, 4
Exo_15:26, Psa_147:3 (2), Isa_30:26
physicians, 4
Gen_50:2 (2), 2Ch_16:12, Job_13:4
whole, 2
Job_5:18, Jer_19:11
cure, 1
Jer_33:6
made, 1
Jer_19:11
physician, 1
Jer_8:22
repaired, 1
1Ki_18:30
thoroughly, 1
Exo_21:19
Then, here is the word healed used in 1 Peter 2:24. It occurs 29 times in the New Testament and 27 times it refers to physical healing. Twice it refers to healing of the heart as in turning to the Lord. Twice. Here are ALL the verses listed below.
iaomai
Total KJV Occurrences: 29
healed, 18
Mat_8:8 (2), Mat_8:13, Mar_5:29, Luk_6:17, Luk_6:19, Luk_7:7, Luk_8:2, Luk_8:47, Luk_9:11, Luk_9:42, Luk_17:15, Luk_22:51, Joh_5:13, Act_3:11, Act_28:8, Heb_12:13, Jam_5:16, 1Pe_2:24
heal, 6
Mat_13:15, Luk_4:18, Luk_5:17, Luk_9:2, Joh_4:47, Joh_12:40
whole, 2
Mat_15:28, Act_9:34
healing, 1
Act_10:38
made, 1
Mat_15:28
maketh, 1
Act_9:34
As for Trophimus and Timothy, read my article on them.
http://www.charismaministries.org/timothy%E2%80%99s-stomach-and-trophimus/
Then you also said: “But I also know that His definition of “good” is not always my definition of “good.” ” If this really how you feel, then with all due respect, you would apparently do a better job at being god than God because you have a greater desire to heal and do good than He does. Sickness is not good. It is not from the God. It is from the devil. Death entered the world through sin and sickness is just part of death. If sickness is from God, you are in rebellion going to a doctor or taking medicine. You should instead pray that the symptoms increase so you can really learn your lesson. Also pray for all our friends and loved ones to get cancer so they to can draw closer to this good God who makes them sick.
As for Matt 10. I do follow that. God provides. I never ask for money when I go minister. I live with people in their houses and not in fancy hotels.
As for your understanding of the commission being very specific for very few people, then why do we go to church? Why do we preach? Why do we do anything if the great commission is not for us? You are hiding behind every excuse you can to keep you from actually having to trust God to be supernatural. Tell the people who were healed when I prayed for them that the commission wasn’t for me or that we can’t pray for healing. I would love for you to tell me how your reasoning explains the following verses:
Mar 9:38-40 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us.
Then you said: “I don’t believe Jesus commanded us to heal the sick.” If that is what you want to believe, then I can’t stop you. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. I have seen thousands of people healed. You have theologies and excuses, I have testimonies and results.
Rom 15:18-19 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1Co 2:4-5 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Seems like Paul taught signs and wonders are needed to FULLY preach the gospel. According to you, he is wrong. According to you, Jesus was wrong. He is the Gospel personified and He healed all.
Jas 2:17-20 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
I would suggest you listen to the Divine Healing Training MP3 teachings before you make wild allegations like you did here. I am not interested in experienced based theology and powerless traditions of man. I believe the God. Period.
I apologize for the bluntness and manner in which I said something, but not for what I said.
Cornel
July 15th, 2010 at 6:19 PM
Cornel,
No problem for the bluntness. We are to be bold when we preach the truth. Though we disagree on what is truth in this instance, I admire that you have the audacity to preach what you believe is truth.
Just wanted to start off by saying that I never said that the Great Commission is not for everyone. It’s most definitely for everyone. I’m saying that Matthew 10 is clearly not for everyone in the context of the verse.
Speaking of context, the Isaiah verse is very clear:
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
What are we healed of by His stripes? “our transgressions,” “our iniquities.” Neither of those mean physical sickness. They mean spiritual sickness, and spiritual sickness alone. Now, does Isaiah predict Jesus’ physical healings? YES, and you’re right about that. That’s in the verse before:
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
That verse clearly refers to Jesus’ future ministry. However, verse 5′s context does not imply that it contains physical healing. Same thing goes with the 1st Peter verse.
“who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.”
By His stripes you were healed of what? Of “our sins,” so that we “have died to sins, might live for righteousness.” Why would the verse start out by talking about spiritual sickness, and then suddenly shift for no reason to physical sickness in the same sentence? The context is clear here: Christ died for our spiritual sickness.
The word “healing” can mean a variety of things. It does not exclusively refer to the physical. I often say that I’m healed of my fear or healed of my heartbrokeness – neither of those are physical maladies.
I don’t find your 1 Tim. analysis very convincing. You said that Paul tells Timothy to drink wine as a method of preventing sickness. Yet in the same verse, Paul mentions Timothy’s “frequent infirmities.” He mentions it as a fact: Timothy has frequent infirmities. In your 2 Tim 4:20 analysis, you say that Jesus left people sick. But that just topples your whole teaching that Jesus commanded us to heal everyone. So I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at there.
As far as theology vs. results, your argument is a misnomer. People seem to shy away from what they think is “theology” because it gets shrouded in debates and rational argument.
But what is theology? Theology is simply understanding what God meant in His Word. I’m pretty sure you believe in the validity and power of God’s Word. As do I. But without “theology,” there’s no way to understand what God’s Word really means. For example, in Proverbs, there’s a verse, where, if you take it out of context, says “There is no God.” Now, if we throw theology and interpretation completely out the window, we might look at that verse and say, ok, the Bible says there is no God. Boom. Done. Close the Bible.
Yet if we bring theology and interpretation back in the picture, we understand that we must look at the context. Lo and behold, the full picture is: “The FOOL says in his heart, there is no God.”
So theology is very important. Without theology, we will fall into the Matt 24:24 trap. Same thing applies in these healing verses. If we just take whichever part of a verse that sounds pleasing to us and interpret it as “ok, this is what God wants me to do,” we might be killing Philistines, because God does command that in the Bible. We have to be very careful which parts of the Bible we take and say that it’s God’s command.
But you’re right in that theology is nothing without experience. We can be full of knowledge but not have a spark of passion in our hearts. God does not like that one bit. That’s where I admire your zeal – you have emotion and passion and compassion, and God has blessed you greatly in this. However, the same is true of the opposite: God does not like it when we base everything on experience and results instead of theology. As theology without experience is nothing, experience without theology is nothing. Look, Matt 24:24 is clear: there will be people in the last days who do things AND SEE RESULTS! Yes, they’ll have experiences and testimonies and results. And yet, look what Jesus calls them: false prophets. That’s a major accusation. These people are false prophets? Why? Because they are interested in testimonies and results? No. They are false prophets because they do not know the truth of the Word. They are operating under the power of the devil, and they are doing all these things that many claim to do today. Isn’t that chilling? In fact, even today, many religions around the world experience healing and miraculous things. Testimonies and results do not alone verify that what you are doing are of God. They must also be backed up by the truth of the Word, which is the function of theology. THAT is serving “the” God.
God bless.
July 15th, 2010 at 9:57 PM
John,
In all of this you are yet to explain to me why Matt 8:16-17 says Jesus healed people to fulfil the prophecy Isaiah made. If I am wrong using Isaiah to preach and minister healing, then Jesus was wrong too.
Matt 8:16 And evening coming on, they brought to Him many who had been possessed with demons. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick 17 so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “He took on Himself our weaknesses and bore our sicknesses.”
Then there are verses such as these:
Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed by the Devil, for God was with Him.
Jesus, who is the exact representation of God’s character and nature, went about healing ALL. 1 John 3:8 says Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil which includes sickness.
1Ti 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The word for saved used there in the Greek is the word ‘sozo’ which also means to heal physically. God’s will is for all men to be healed just as much as it is His will for them to be saved.
If healing wasn’t clearly included in the atonement, the atonement for sins alone by default would provide for it anyway. Using your argument that we were only healed of our sins and iniquities and stuff, lets logically reason that out:
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned–
Death entered through sin. Sickness is an immature form of death. If sin was dealt with, the legal right of death & sickness was removed too. Let’s imagine you were in jail for committing some crime. Then one day you are pardoned, or forgiven. Would you stay in prison as a pardoned prisoner or would you leave the prison and be free? If the person is pardoned for the crime, they are free to go. If the result or cause of sickness and death has been dealt with, why then walk around with it? If Jesus carried our sickness, why do we still need to? Why did Jesus bother carrying it if we are to carry it too? If Jesus died to carry something God was going to let us carry anyway, then doesn’t that mean Jesus died for nothing? The Bible says the wages of sin is death. If Jesus only dealt with our sins, then technically He only needed to die. He didn’t need to be beaten and flogged. The wages of sin is not flogging.
1Co 15:55-57 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is mocking death here. For death to not have victory means it has been dealt with. Death only found power through sin and since sin has been dealt with, death has no right in any form. And even if a believer dies physically from sickness, death is swallowed up in life because that person doesn’t die but has eternal life. Now if we again suppose that God doesn’t always heal but that He sometimes in certain circumstances wills sickness to be, then that would mean that that unfortunate person is going to live eternally with that sickness. Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. That means if its God’s will for you to be sick, you will be sick. When you die, you are going to heaven where God’s will is still for you to be sick, hence you will be sick for ever.
Bottom line, if the prisoner has been pardoned, he no longer has to live out the imposed punishment resulting from the transgression.
Furthermore, Jesus became a curse for us, right?
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
In Deut 28 where all the curses of the law are mentioned, sickness is amongst them more than any other curse. If we are freed from the curse of the law which includes sickness, then why carry the curse that has no cause?
Pro 26:2 Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.
Since Jesus became a curse for us and forgave us of our sins, the cause of the curse, then the curse of sickness is illegal to. I don’t need Isaiah or 1 Peter to preach healing. My theology is not based on 2 scriptures. It is all over the Bible.
Psa 103:2-3 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, 3 who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,
Apparently one benefit of the Lord is that He HEALS ALL OUR DISEASES. Forgiveness and healing together.
Psa 107:20 He sent out his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.
His word was sent to heal them. Who is the word? Jesus is the Word. He was sent to heal us AND deliver us from our destruction. Forgiveness and healing together again.
Mal 4:2 the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings.
And lets not forget Jehovah Rapha, The Lord who heals you. And lastly, in the words of Jesus Himself:
Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
If God heals and allows sickness or makes us sick, His Kingdom and His house is divided. God does not do good and evil. And saying that our view of what is good is different than God’s view of what is good, then why do we not read of one instance where Jesus made somebody sick, or one instance where He did not heal somebody who came to Him? We partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and therefore we know sickness is evil. If it weren’t evil, why do we keep trying to fight it? If sickness can be good, why don’t we go about injecting people with cancer and aids and things like that? If mankind knows sickness is bad and is doing everything possible to stop it, don’t you for one moment even think that God has the same conclusion? After all it is God who works both in us to will and work for His GOOD pleasure.
Grace to you
Cornel
July 16th, 2010 at 7:02 AM
Cornel,
In my previous comment, I mentioned that verse 4 of the Isaiah passage is a foreshadowing of Jesus’ physical healings to come. So yes, I agree with you, and Matt. 8:16-17 (haha) that the Isaiah verse does predict Jesus’ physical healings. But what I’m trying to get at is that in verse 5, the “by His stripes we are healed” passage does not refer to physical healing, but spiritual healing from sin, and I arrive at the conclusion through looking at context. If nothing else, the 1st Peter verse refers directly to verse 5, and that one is very clear about spiritual healing and not physical healing. Verse 4 of the Isaiah passage is merely prophetic and foreshadowing, and is not a promise from God to man for physical healing.
As for “sozo,” I believe this thread makes several strong points: http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/meaning-sozo-40482/ Ignore the fact that it’s called “Puritan Board” haha, it’s just a name.
The verses you listed are good and all, but I don’t see any evidence that they refer to sickness and death. If you can find a verse that says that sickness and death belong exclusively to the devil, then it follows that Jesus “healing all those oppressed by the devil” will include sickness. Otherwise, I don’t believe that the Bible supports that sickness and death belong exclusively to the devil. In Exodus, God sends a spirit to wipe out all the Egyptian’s first born. Later, he collapses the ocean to kill the Egyptian army. In the NT, He strikes down Ananias and Sapphira. There are plenty of instances throughout the Bible where God uses, and even initiates, sickness and death. He is sovereign.
It can’t be logically reasoned that the Romans 5:12 passage provides freedom from physical sickness. It concludes that death comes from sin, yes. And freedom from sin means freedom from death (which is heaven), yes. But our earthly bodies are dirtied, and Jesus didn’t come to save the physical body. In fact, He says we are not to fear those that can hurt the physical body, but instead He who has power over the soul. Over and over again the Bible speaks of throwing away our old bodies and putting on new glorious bodies once we get to heaven. Over and over, it speaks of a spiritual renewal and not a physical one. Everything physical passes away. Why would God waste time trying to save the physical? It’s the spiritual that’s important. Also, you’ll have to find some Biblical support that “sickness is an immature form of death” in regards to this Romans passage for me to be convinced.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your reasoning between sin/death. There is no evidence that suggests that if we are sick on Earth, that we will also be sick in heaven. “As on earth as it is in heaven” does not refer to our physical state, but is Jesus talking about believers submitting to the will of God in their lives. There is no evidence that says that people will be sick in heaven – heaven will be a place with rejoicing and lack of tears. But there is no conflict here. Heaven and earth are different places. On earth, we struggle against suffering to develop character (Romans 5:3-4). “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but [in heaven] face to face.” Heaven is the eventual perfection, and heaven and earth are certainly not meant to be the same in quality.
Sickness and suffering are bad things, yes. But does not God use the bad for the good? In God’s eyes, sickness can be a good thing because He can use it to reprimand us, or help us develop character. That’s what I mean when I say that God’s ways are not always ours. He sees the big picture. Does that mean we shouldn’t struggle against sickness? Not at all! What makes us human is that we continue to struggle against sickness and suffering, and that’s the whole point because through struggling, we gain perspective and develop fruit and character.
But God does use sickness and suffering. In 2 Corinthians 7:9-10, it goes as far as to say that God willed sorrow:
“9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.”
God uses suffering in this instance to bring repentance. And He uses it in many other instances throughout the Bible too, for different purposes: Job, Acts 5, 2 Sam 12:15, etc. But the good thing is, as you said, He uses it to work for His good pleasure. Does He will for all to be physically healed right now? No. Are there times when He DOES want physical healing to occur? Undoubtedly. But to throw a blanket statement over it and say that Jesus somehow commanded us to go out and heal all the sick is to ignore God’s will as revealed through His Word.
July 16th, 2010 at 12:35 PM
John, you said: “Sickness and suffering are bad things, yes. But does not God use the bad for the good? In God’s eyes, sickness can be a good thing because He can use it to reprimand us, or help us develop character.”
If you want to keep on believing that God is a child-abusing murderer, I can’t stop you. 1 Tim 3:16-17 says God’s word is used to correct and develop us. The anointing and Holy Spirit also teaches us all things according to 1 John 2:27. You have just called the Word and the anointing sickness, which by your own words are bad things. So God does bad things according to you. If you want to keep believing that, go for it.
Sure God makes all things work together for the good, but that in no ways means He orchestrates bad things just to make it work together for good. That is counter productive and dumb.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
My Father’s house is not divided. His people might not agree, but He does no evil. Even Job knew that.
Job 1:22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.
If sickness and suffering is used to reprimand and build character, why don’t you then follow God’s example and start injecting the people you love or your own children with cancer, aids, and other evil diseases. You want them to be good people with sound character right, so go ahead, make them sick. That what God does according to you. If it is OK for God to make people sick but not for us, then God is a hypocrite.
Thank you for your replies but I honestly don’t see the point in arguing with you any longer. Why don’t you rather spend this time to go tell the suffering and dying world out there that their suffering is God’s will and doing, and I spend my time to tell them God has provided a way out of that. We are here to reveal the gospel of the glory and kingdom of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and that is not sickness and suffering.
September 2nd, 2010 at 9:05 AM
I am having a similar discussion with friends where I live. I am probably the “John’ in the discussion, and my friend is the ‘Cornel’. My ‘Cornel’ friend sent this to me…just so you know.
There are actually many things we agree on. As do the two of you. What we mustn’t get away from is the sufficiency of the Cross in saving us from our sin and renewing us.
I also believe God heals. I do think he ‘allows’ us to be sick, also. Like the bodily sores he caused on the Egyptians during the series of plagues when Pharoah would not let the Israelite’s go. So we can’t say He wouldn’t cause illness. Here he did.
I have seen very Godly people suffer illness. Consider Jonie Erikson Tada, whom God has refined through her suffering to become very useful for furthering his kingdom.
I have even seen my friends husband have an illness even after claiming that the pain go away ‘in Jesus name’ – he had an appendix attack.
We need to remember there is much in God’s word that teaches us how to live healthy lives – these principles are in place so that we can be healthy…and so, not sick. But we don’t always eat the way we ought, we bring illness unto ourselves (God permit’s illess and suffering) as a result of our choices/circumstances. A circumstance may be something like second hand smoke causing us to be ill. Can he heal us, regardless of them – sure. He is ALL powerful. Does He in every circumstance – no. Like Joni Erikson Tada, like my father in law who passed away with cancer, and even my friend’s husband who ended up having to go to the hospital and have surgery, despite their faith that God heals…in that circumstance, he was healed – but by going to the doctor, not a miraculous healing like we are discussing. ( I would argue that having a doctor able to heal us from such an attack is a miracle)
He wants us to rely on His word for his truth. I think we all agree on that. He wants to set us free from our sinful ways, by surrendering to his truth. There is beauty in surrender.
It applies to all areas of life. And even those who aren’t saved yet – benefit from following biblical principles. That is just the order of things, as God has deemed it. But even those people who live ‘healthy lives’ because they follow biblical principles (even though they don’t realize they are) are bound for hell if they have not had their sins atoned for.
Isn’t that ultimately what we need to be concerned about? It was Jesus purpose and plan ultimately to have us there with Him in heaven and not to suffer eternally in hell. He used healing, and does still at times – but not always – for others, our hearts are turned to him through suffering.
I think it boils down to one side seeing things with an eternal perspective – and the other seeing things more here and now. Both are important – but I tend to think being sure our citizenship in the heavenly realm most important.
The problem I have come against with some, who preach that God would have us all healed here on earth, is in those cases where, well, He doesn’t heal. Yet, we know, He still forgives and atones for the sins of those who believe on his name, who turn away from their sin/or repent. – even if they are sick. or fat or mean. or rude. or nice. or sore. or physically healthy. what matters is the state of their heart and Jesus knew we all needed saving.
In Christ,
Tara Fox
September 2nd, 2010 at 5:41 PM
Hi Tara
Thanks for your comments. Firstly, God does not allow any form of sickness. That would make Him a child-abuser. You wouldn’t make your children sick to teach them lessons, and neither will God. If you believe otherwise, you are choosing to believe a lie. Yes God did things to the Egyptians and many other nations but that was before the New Covenant was made. Under this NEW covenant the way God relates to people is based in Jesus and Jesus alone. Not dietary observations, moral self-righteousness or any other such religious nonsense.
Bottom line is this: Jesus taught us to pray this way: Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Since there is no sickness in heaven, the eradication of ALL sickness is God’s will. If God heals and also makes sick, He is double-minded, untrustworthy and a hypocrite who murdered his own son. Since He is none of that, your arguments and point of view do nothing to honour Him and bring Him glory.
Human experience does not dictate truth. If you or anybody else experienced something that contradicts truth, you merely experienced a lie. The lie is real and but just because it’s real doesn’t make it truth.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Change the way you think and your life will be transformed.
September 3rd, 2010 at 12:24 AM
@Tara,
“He used healing, and does still at times – but not always – for others, our hearts are turned to him through suffering”
The fact that we see something happen doesn’t make it God’s will. Did God want Adam and Even to eat of the fruit and birth death? Did God want the martyrs to get burned and fed to lions? The world is fallen. It is our duty as God’s ambassadors to make it line up with the word of God.
I can understand the “God ‘allows’ sickness” part, but He allowed it cos we didn’t do anything about it. Think about this:
If say I wake up one morning and find that my body is paralyzed and I can only move a tiny bit, I could spend my time in bed and read the bible and dictate awesome sermons and truths from scripture – which may or may not be accepted.
OR,
I could walk in the healing atoned for by Jesus, get off the bed and SHOW everyone that my God is just plain vanilla awesome.
Did draw closer to God in my suffering? Maybe. The ‘God’s will” theology says that God made me ill so I could draw closer to Him. Which is in every way against His nature as seen in The Covenant. All i see is Jesus drawing people unto Himself by SHOWING them God, not just by talking. People turn when they see how much God loves them. Where is free will if He smites them to bring them to Himself? Why on earth would I want to go to someone who is trying to kill me to save me??
It is true that we should focus on going to heaven, but that’s not why Jesus came. We say He came to give us eternal life, which is 100% true. What is eternal life? It’s not just about going to Heaven. (John 17:3). It is to KNOW Him. Do you think Jesus would walk by a sick person and not budge?
I don’t know why those you mentioned prayed and nothing seemed to happen. All I know is that, I have seen this work in many cases.
I’d have written more but I gotta go to work now. Hopefully, I’ve said a few things which might help you question some of what you believe/have believed.
Love,
DK
September 3rd, 2010 at 9:34 AM
You have seen it work in ‘many cases’ – but not all. That is my point.. I have too, having grown up in the charismatic movement.
I think you and Joni Erickson Tada could have a very good conversation.
Thanks for you thoughts.
I have been enjoying reading through the book of Job and studying God’s own words.
Blessings In Christ,
Tara Fox
September 3rd, 2010 at 5:30 PM
It is pretty arrogant to think that just because you didn’t experience the healing that God didn’t move. God instantly answers every single prayer that is in-line with the atonement. WE don’t always instantly receive because we have doubts, demonic resistance, illegitimate prayers, wrong theology, traditions etc. The problem is not with God supplying, it is with us receiving. I do not look to man’s experience to tell me what is true. Jesus is truth and He healed all. He didn’t make one person sick, allowed them to suffer or anything of this nonsense you are proposing.
Since you are enjoying Job so much, consider this:
Job 1:22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.
Every time you charge God with allowing suffering or making people sick you are sinning. Every time you say God allows suffering and pain, you are also attributing to God the work of the devil. (See John 10:10) I do not want to stand before God and call the Holy Spirit a spirit of infirmity. Get your theology straightened out and apologize to God for insulting Him like this.
September 7th, 2010 at 6:02 AM
Remember this Tara,
you are NOT Job. You two aren’t even in the same class. He is at best a servant and you are begotten of the Lord, so don’t assume his circumstances to be yours; the same way you don’t perform animal sacrifices cos you are not under the Mosaic law. We have no idea what Job’s covenant with God was. He’s not your example, Jesus is. ^_^.
&& I’ll read up a bit more on Joni’s story. I didn’t even know she existed. Thanks for the reference!
Love,
DK