Yes He does. Dead people don’t have the ability to want, yet God raises them up. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It doesn’t say do unto others as they want done unto them. I also don’t think anybody really wants to be sick. I have never met anybody who wanted to be sick.

&& I’ll read up a bit more on Joni’s story. I didn’t even know she existed. Thanks for the reference!

Love,
DK

Since you are enjoying Job so much, consider this:

Job 1:22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.

Every time you charge God with allowing suffering or making people sick you are sinning. Every time you say God allows suffering and pain, you are also attributing to God the work of the devil. (See John 10:10) I do not want to stand before God and call the Holy Spirit a spirit of infirmity. Get your theology straightened out and apologize to God for insulting Him like this.

Thanks for you thoughts.
I have been enjoying reading through the book of Job and studying God’s own words.

Blessings In Christ,
Tara Fox

“He used healing, and does still at times – but not always – for others, our hearts are turned to him through suffering”

The fact that we see something happen doesn’t make it God’s will. Did God want Adam and Even to eat of the fruit and birth death? Did God want the martyrs to get burned and fed to lions? The world is fallen. It is our duty as God’s ambassadors to make it line up with the word of God.
I can understand the “God ‘allows’ sickness” part, but He allowed it cos we didn’t do anything about it. Think about this:
If say I wake up one morning and find that my body is paralyzed and I can only move a tiny bit, I could spend my time in bed and read the bible and dictate awesome sermons and truths from scripture – which may or may not be accepted.
OR,
I could walk in the healing atoned for by Jesus, get off the bed and SHOW everyone that my God is just plain vanilla awesome.
Did draw closer to God in my suffering? Maybe. The ‘God’s will” theology says that God made me ill so I could draw closer to Him. Which is in every way against His nature as seen in The Covenant. All i see is Jesus drawing people unto Himself by SHOWING them God, not just by talking. People turn when they see how much God loves them. Where is free will if He smites them to bring them to Himself? Why on earth would I want to go to someone who is trying to kill me to save me??

It is true that we should focus on going to heaven, but that’s not why Jesus came. We say He came to give us eternal life, which is 100% true. What is eternal life? It’s not just about going to Heaven. (John 17:3). It is to KNOW Him. Do you think Jesus would walk by a sick person and not budge?
I don’t know why those you mentioned prayed and nothing seemed to happen. All I know is that, I have seen this work in many cases.
I’d have written more but I gotta go to work now. Hopefully, I’ve said a few things which might help you question some of what you believe/have believed.

Love,
DK

Thanks for your comments. Firstly, God does not allow any form of sickness. That would make Him a child-abuser. You wouldn’t make your children sick to teach them lessons, and neither will God. If you believe otherwise, you are choosing to believe a lie. Yes God did things to the Egyptians and many other nations but that was before the New Covenant was made. Under this NEW covenant the way God relates to people is based in Jesus and Jesus alone. Not dietary observations, moral self-righteousness or any other such religious nonsense.

Bottom line is this: Jesus taught us to pray this way: Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Since there is no sickness in heaven, the eradication of ALL sickness is God’s will. If God heals and also makes sick, He is double-minded, untrustworthy and a hypocrite who murdered his own son. Since He is none of that, your arguments and point of view do nothing to honour Him and bring Him glory.

Human experience does not dictate truth. If you or anybody else experienced something that contradicts truth, you merely experienced a lie. The lie is real and but just because it’s real doesn’t make it truth.

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Change the way you think and your life will be transformed.

There are actually many things we agree on. As do the two of you. What we mustn’t get away from is the sufficiency of the Cross in saving us from our sin and renewing us.

I also believe God heals. I do think he ‘allows’ us to be sick, also. Like the bodily sores he caused on the Egyptians during the series of plagues when Pharoah would not let the Israelite’s go. So we can’t say He wouldn’t cause illness. Here he did.
I have seen very Godly people suffer illness. Consider Jonie Erikson Tada, whom God has refined through her suffering to become very useful for furthering his kingdom.
I have even seen my friends husband have an illness even after claiming that the pain go away ‘in Jesus name’ – he had an appendix attack.

We need to remember there is much in God’s word that teaches us how to live healthy lives – these principles are in place so that we can be healthy…and so, not sick. But we don’t always eat the way we ought, we bring illness unto ourselves (God permit’s illess and suffering) as a result of our choices/circumstances. A circumstance may be something like second hand smoke causing us to be ill. Can he heal us, regardless of them – sure. He is ALL powerful. Does He in every circumstance – no. Like Joni Erikson Tada, like my father in law who passed away with cancer, and even my friend’s husband who ended up having to go to the hospital and have surgery, despite their faith that God heals…in that circumstance, he was healed – but by going to the doctor, not a miraculous healing like we are discussing. ( I would argue that having a doctor able to heal us from such an attack is a miracle)

He wants us to rely on His word for his truth. I think we all agree on that. He wants to set us free from our sinful ways, by surrendering to his truth. There is beauty in surrender.

It applies to all areas of life. And even those who aren’t saved yet – benefit from following biblical principles. That is just the order of things, as God has deemed it. But even those people who live ‘healthy lives’ because they follow biblical principles (even though they don’t realize they are) are bound for hell if they have not had their sins atoned for.

Isn’t that ultimately what we need to be concerned about? It was Jesus purpose and plan ultimately to have us there with Him in heaven and not to suffer eternally in hell. He used healing, and does still at times – but not always – for others, our hearts are turned to him through suffering.

I think it boils down to one side seeing things with an eternal perspective – and the other seeing things more here and now. Both are important – but I tend to think being sure our citizenship in the heavenly realm most important.
The problem I have come against with some, who preach that God would have us all healed here on earth, is in those cases where, well, He doesn’t heal. Yet, we know, He still forgives and atones for the sins of those who believe on his name, who turn away from their sin/or repent. – even if they are sick. or fat or mean. or rude. or nice. or sore. or physically healthy. what matters is the state of their heart and Jesus knew we all needed saving.

In Christ,
Tara Fox

If you want to keep on believing that God is a child-abusing murderer, I can’t stop you. 1 Tim 3:16-17 says God’s word is used to correct and develop us. The anointing and Holy Spirit also teaches us all things according to 1 John 2:27. You have just called the Word and the anointing sickness, which by your own words are bad things. So God does bad things according to you. If you want to keep believing that, go for it.

Sure God makes all things work together for the good, but that in no ways means He orchestrates bad things just to make it work together for good. That is counter productive and dumb.

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

My Father’s house is not divided. His people might not agree, but He does no evil. Even Job knew that.

Job 1:22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.

If sickness and suffering is used to reprimand and build character, why don’t you then follow God’s example and start injecting the people you love or your own children with cancer, aids, and other evil diseases. You want them to be good people with sound character right, so go ahead, make them sick. That what God does according to you. If it is OK for God to make people sick but not for us, then God is a hypocrite.

Thank you for your replies but I honestly don’t see the point in arguing with you any longer. Why don’t you rather spend this time to go tell the suffering and dying world out there that their suffering is God’s will and doing, and I spend my time to tell them God has provided a way out of that. We are here to reveal the gospel of the glory and kingdom of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and that is not sickness and suffering.

In my previous comment, I mentioned that verse 4 of the Isaiah passage is a foreshadowing of Jesus’ physical healings to come. So yes, I agree with you, and Matt. 8:16-17 (haha) that the Isaiah verse does predict Jesus’ physical healings. But what I’m trying to get at is that in verse 5, the “by His stripes we are healed” passage does not refer to physical healing, but spiritual healing from sin, and I arrive at the conclusion through looking at context. If nothing else, the 1st Peter verse refers directly to verse 5, and that one is very clear about spiritual healing and not physical healing. Verse 4 of the Isaiah passage is merely prophetic and foreshadowing, and is not a promise from God to man for physical healing.

As for “sozo,” I believe this thread makes several strong points: http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/meaning-sozo-40482/ Ignore the fact that it’s called “Puritan Board” haha, it’s just a name.

The verses you listed are good and all, but I don’t see any evidence that they refer to sickness and death. If you can find a verse that says that sickness and death belong exclusively to the devil, then it follows that Jesus “healing all those oppressed by the devil” will include sickness. Otherwise, I don’t believe that the Bible supports that sickness and death belong exclusively to the devil. In Exodus, God sends a spirit to wipe out all the Egyptian’s first born. Later, he collapses the ocean to kill the Egyptian army. In the NT, He strikes down Ananias and Sapphira. There are plenty of instances throughout the Bible where God uses, and even initiates, sickness and death. He is sovereign.

It can’t be logically reasoned that the Romans 5:12 passage provides freedom from physical sickness. It concludes that death comes from sin, yes. And freedom from sin means freedom from death (which is heaven), yes. But our earthly bodies are dirtied, and Jesus didn’t come to save the physical body. In fact, He says we are not to fear those that can hurt the physical body, but instead He who has power over the soul. Over and over again the Bible speaks of throwing away our old bodies and putting on new glorious bodies once we get to heaven. Over and over, it speaks of a spiritual renewal and not a physical one. Everything physical passes away. Why would God waste time trying to save the physical? It’s the spiritual that’s important. Also, you’ll have to find some Biblical support that “sickness is an immature form of death” in regards to this Romans passage for me to be convinced.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your reasoning between sin/death. There is no evidence that suggests that if we are sick on Earth, that we will also be sick in heaven. “As on earth as it is in heaven” does not refer to our physical state, but is Jesus talking about believers submitting to the will of God in their lives. There is no evidence that says that people will be sick in heaven – heaven will be a place with rejoicing and lack of tears. But there is no conflict here. Heaven and earth are different places. On earth, we struggle against suffering to develop character (Romans 5:3-4). “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but [in heaven] face to face.” Heaven is the eventual perfection, and heaven and earth are certainly not meant to be the same in quality.

Sickness and suffering are bad things, yes. But does not God use the bad for the good? In God’s eyes, sickness can be a good thing because He can use it to reprimand us, or help us develop character. That’s what I mean when I say that God’s ways are not always ours. He sees the big picture. Does that mean we shouldn’t struggle against sickness? Not at all! What makes us human is that we continue to struggle against sickness and suffering, and that’s the whole point because through struggling, we gain perspective and develop fruit and character.

But God does use sickness and suffering. In 2 Corinthians 7:9-10, it goes as far as to say that God willed sorrow:

“9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.”

God uses suffering in this instance to bring repentance. And He uses it in many other instances throughout the Bible too, for different purposes: Job, Acts 5, 2 Sam 12:15, etc. But the good thing is, as you said, He uses it to work for His good pleasure. Does He will for all to be physically healed right now? No. Are there times when He DOES want physical healing to occur? Undoubtedly. But to throw a blanket statement over it and say that Jesus somehow commanded us to go out and heal all the sick is to ignore God’s will as revealed through His Word.